I’ve read The Game. I’ve read manuals and articles and websites about pick-up artists (or, irritatingly – PUAs), and their magical and mysterious secrets to ensnaring women. Like a grisly child with a knee scab, I’m simultaneously horrified and fascinated by the whole thing, and I just can’t help picking at it.
Recently there was a kick off because a pick up artist set up a Kickstarter project to fund a book that had some pretty questionable advice in it. The material in question involved such gems as:
“You have established yourself as a LEADER. Don’t ask for permission, GRAB HER HAND, and put it right on your dick.”
You can read more about it in this Vice interview, in which the author explains that he wasn’t advocating sexual assault or rape, he was simply trying to give shy guys the confidence to ‘be awesome with women’.
And herein lies the problem that I have with every single pick up guide I have ever come across: PUAs think there’s a complex and secret formula. Wait – scratch that. They say there’s a complex and secret formula. Presumably, if they’re the experts on women that they pretend to be, they know that there actually isn’t, but pretending there is one gives them either kudos or, in some cases, money from exactly the shy guys they’re trying to help.
So, in an effort to slightly decrease their revenue, I’m going to tell you what their actual secret is. There’s no complex formula, script or rule book, just one small nudge in the right direction. It’s mentioned in all pick up artist literature but (as far as I’ve seen) the significance of it is never properly explained. Here goes:
The key secret Pick Up Artists gloss over
Talk to women.
That’s it. That’s the secret. Disappointing, right? The problem is that this ‘secret’ is hidden within a bunch of irrelevant and often obnoxious crap. So, if a guy has success when he talks to a woman and follows the obnoxious crap rules, it’s frequently (and in my opinion incorrectly) attributed to the fact that the crap is somehow magic, rather than the one significant thing that the guy actually did: he dramatically increased the number of women he spoke to.
Shy guys and chatting up
Allow me to explain, using some of the words of Ken Hoinsky, author of ‘A Guide to Getting Awesome with Women‘
He explains that the audience for his book – and indeed the audience for most PUA material – is very specific: “men who were me five or ten years ago – shy, nerdy, maybe introverted.” Men who “don’t have experience in social situations” and “who’ve maybe never kissed a girl“.
Realistically, these are not the sort of guys who will frequently approach women they fancy. They are, understandably, the sort of guys who might hang back in a crowd or avoid speaking up because they’re worried about being rejected. Ken author admits that this is the case – what he’s doing, he says, is not about encouraging men to force themselves on women, but encouraging shy men to take that small step forward.
“The seduction world is self-help in disguise. The majority of it is about developing confidence in more traditional self-help.”
The Game helps that, apparently. Pick-up artists help that, apparently. Because they give men self confidence and tricks and scripts and plans and all the extra bits and pieces. However, the self confidence isn’t the stated goal for the vast majority of people in this community: sex is. What’s more, self-confidence on its own won’t get someone from being a shy, nerdy never-kissed-a-girl type into their first relationship. The thing that will most dramatically increase the odds of any guy sleeping with, or having a relationship with a particular woman, is talking to her.
All pick up artists will tell you to do this, but few will make a big fuss over it. They’ll tell you how to talk, and when to talk, and sometimes what to say, but they won’t tell you that the key to all of their success comes from the simple fact that you’re doing it. That, absent any peripheral voodoo, they’re taking people who never talk to women, and getting them to talk to women.
Applying this secret to the Real World
Is it any bloody wonder that people who implement the PUA’s rules have more success with women than they did before? If they’ve never before spoken to a woman, then of course they’re going to have more success if they start speaking to women. Even if they’re nervous. Even if they don’t know what to say. Even if they’re rejected three out of four times. When you start at zero, anything’s a win.
Don’t believe me? Stop comparing pick-up artists to the ‘shy, introverted guys’ they all claim they used to be. Compare them instead to someone you know who is simply confident enough to talk to new people. Someone who doesn’t use tricks or wear a magic hat or tell the women they’re fat in order to manipulate them into sex. Compare a pick-up artist to your average, decent guy, and see who is more successful at getting a date.
Let’s do some science
Trust me on this, people – it’s a very simple scientific error. If I want to test whether car A is faster than car B, I run them both under identical conditions. I don’t have a different driver in each, on different tracks, with different weights in the boot and then try to claim that the vastly bigger engine in car B is a barely irrelevant factor in its success. Likewise, including a ton of misleading misogynist waffle alongside what is fundamentally good advice (“Hey! Talk to women!) shouldn’t lead you to conclude that it was your value-added bullshit that really made the difference.
I appreciate that this isn’t going to help you much if you’re one of those shy guys – someone shouting “Just talk to women!” in your ear won’t make it any easier to wander up and approach one. All I need you to understand for now is that the journey from ‘lonely dude’ to ‘man who has a girlfriend/wife/shag’ isn’t nearly as long and complicated as PUAs would have you believe.
These guys do not have access to secret knowledge. They are not better than you. They are not magic. Many of them, in fact, are gold-plated bastards. So look on the bright side: if you avoid becoming a bastard and start talking to more women, there’s a fairly high chance that you’ll be more successful than they are.
32 Comments
But if they stop believing in The Game, the next thing you know, they’ll stop believing in all the sales training and THEN WHERE WILL WE BE?
Good point, I’m sorry. This stuff is excruciatingly important, especially if one wants some windows double-glazed =)
The two things have a lot in common; all the PUAs I’ve ever met but one were salesmen. They are in the habit of both believing in this stuff, and identifying intensely with selling. I think the whole phenomenon is conditioned by capitalism; people trying to apply the stuff their bosses use to motivate them as a way of getting laid.
radge, eh, to quote Irvine Welsh.
I think there’s one other important step (although arguably it’s included in your single one, but when dealing with people who are not that good with social cues it’s important to be explicit in these matters):
LISTEN to the women you’re talking to.
This is important a) because it is rather key in terms of picking up on their interest or lack thereof and b) it’s a lot more interesting having a conversation with someone who exhibits interest in your side of it, rather than someone who is just waiting for you to shut up so they can say their next super-interesting thing. I am… not exactly a natural socialite, so I know whereof I speak (although I am a ladygirl and that) having been on both sides of both types of convo (one-sided and two-way).
I was actually hoping that nobody had said listening, as that was the overriding thing I thought reading the post. In order to effectively talk to anyone, you have to effectively listen. One big lesson I learned, coincidentally when I was a salesman of double glazing to pay my way through Uni many moons ago, was that in general, you have two ears and only one mouth and should use them accordingly.
I’m a bloke, and I have friends who are perfectly sociable, good humoured nice guys, but say they can’t talk to women. I don’t get it as long as you talk to women the way you would ANY human. If you can talk, and listen, to men well enough, you can talk to women. Both men and women are humans after all.
Well, this depends. I do a professional job. I lecture. It’s a job where effectively, you perform, in front of people. But you occupy a position of power so it makes life easier. It’s just a job.
But, outside the teaching room I am painfully shy. It’s not just about not being able to talk and listen to women, it’s about talking to strangers in general. I hate social gatherings, they drain me. And then I’m one of those people who are “cursed” with the affliction of over-thinking pretty much everything.
I spent my teenage years as an awkward, odd-looking socially maladroit teenager, only to find that I became an awkward, odd-looking socially maladroit adult. While not being hideously deformed I have never really been that attractive to the opposite sex. That first, visual barrier is a difficult one to overcome most of the time. Or maybe I’m just way too picky. Then, instead of exhibiting what some might call animal magnetism I seem to have been imbued with a strange, almost spooky “anti-charisma”. I can count the number of relationships I have had on the fingers of…well, two fingers actually. When I was younger this bothered me, but now I have adjusted to the fact that this is just the way I am. Some of us really are just that shy.
I’m pretty sure that if more men talked _with_ women then a few of the world’s problems might get resolved before the next ice age.
So tired of the barriers between us all.
Can I suggest a blog here? I have no connection, I just think it’s awesome: http://www.postmasculine.com
The guy gives the best advice on this subject I’ve ever read (and I’ve read a lot – as a woman). His book is really good. No manipulation or games – all based on principles of good character and honesty.
I always found that the best line to use was:
“So tell me little about yourself……”
Heh, …awesome take-down of some folks that certainly deserve a little decrease in their revenue.
I knew a self-proclaimed pick up artist. His friend told me he was his wingman and that if he wanted to sleep with me he could. He tried. Nope.
The arrogance of it all is so off-putting! And having read up on it a little myself, I can tell what some men have tried to do to get me to like them in the past – using props, and ridiculously egotistical techniques. The result is just me thinking how disingenuous and boring the guy must be to have to follow someone else’s rules for conversation.
Dating is hard and scary, but why aren’t people encouraged to create their own ‘openers’ and then improvise the rest? Isn’t that what men have done for centuries, and it must have worked because we’re all here..
Personally, the awkward stutters and embarrassed glances are one of my favourite parts of dating.
“Men” have indeed done this for hundreds of thousands of years, but that is of little relevance to particular men, who still have to figure out openers and improvisation techniques that work. Just as we’re all here because our parents figured it out, there are many peers of our parents who never figured it out, and who don’t have children among us. It isn’t a foregone conclusion that we will all figure it out just as our parents did.
True some people need help, but I’m challenging whether this kind of help is always useful in the long run.
I so so so agree with you on all of this. The Game is both awful and fascinating, but you’re right. Talking to women is at the crux of it all.
The tragic thing for me is that, these less than confident men on Reddit are being flagrantly lied to. When a woman comes in an voices her opinion on what actually would work, they’re shouted down as liars.
It’s really quite simple. Most women have experienced sexual harassment at the very least, often worse. Many do not respond well to uninvited touching – I certainly don’t.
The truth is, if you want to know whether a woman wants you to touch her, there’s a very simple test – let your knee brush against or gently touch hers while sitting next to each other (eg nothing more confrontational than we deal with on the tube each day). A woman anticipating your touch will feel like she’s been electrocuted from those tiny touches – if she’s not interested, she will move out of your way. They should be learning to understand women’s signals, not how to assault them. Furthermore, just because she likes your knees touching doesn’t mean she wants your cock in her mouth.
If a woman is interested, she’s interested. If not, she’s not. Now, obviously drugs and alcohol may make her less choosy, there’s no denying that. But if you don’t want to take advantage of vulnerable women in order to get your rocks off, you have to learn to talk to them as if they’re real human beings and figure out if they’re into you or not.
The biggest bugbear of mine is this friend zone bullshit. All of my proper relationships and most of my flings have been with friends. That’s who I get the most love, respect and best sex from – rutting with strangers is unfulfilling to me, and usually shit too. There are many ways of turning friendships into relationships – but then you’re relying on the girl actually liking you and you requiring a personality, so I guess is easier to insult them until they feel so bad about themselves that all they can do is suck you off while sobbing. What a great sex life these guys must have.
A lot of this is some very old and tired wine in new bottles.
I enjoy this blog a great deal, but I get VERY sceptical whenever I hear these claims that attracting and picking up women is so terribly easy and simple. And that’s especially so when I hear these claims coming from women. I listened to far too much of that sort of thing when I was young and single, and I wish I hadn’t listened because it was utter garbage.
I recall such pearls of wisdom as “Women like nice guys”, “Just be yourself”, “All you have to do is say hi”, and (my personal favourite) “Take your time and get to know her as a person first”. (Their words, not mine.) And a hell of a lot of good it all did.
I don’t believe women are deliberately giving men bad advice, but when it comes to this topic they just plain do not know what they’re talking about, and any advice they give men will reflect that. (Professionals may be something of an exception, but they’re few and far between.)
OK, here goes: I never said it was ‘terribly easy’. In fact, I said: ‘I appreciate that this isn’t going to help you much if you’re one of those shy guys – someone shouting “Just talk to women!” in your ear won’t make it any easier to wander up and approach one.’
Yeah, it’s hard. But it’s hard because, whenever you are meeting someone new you’re putting yourself out there and saying ‘do you like me?’ which is bloody difficult because there’s always the option that they’ll turn around and say ‘no.’ And that hurts your self-esteem, and therefore it’s tricky.
I’m not saying it’s easy: I’m saying that these magic tricks don’t have any special powers, other than to con you into thinking you’re doing something unique. While ‘be nice’ and ‘be yourself’ don’t sound particularly special, they basically are the best ways to meet people. It sounds like the problem you have is that they don’t work on everyone: they won’t successfully persuade someone into bed, or on a date, or into giving someone your phone number, if that person doesn’t actually fancy you. And that’s OK, because not everyone is going to fancy you.
The difference between honest advice and pick up art is that honest advice isn’t going to pretend you’ll get laid with anyone any everyone you choose. Here’s some more honest advice, on how to actually chat up a woman: http://www.girlonthenet.com/2013/09/02/how-to-chat-up-a-woman/ It’s exactly the same as the advice I’d give women on how to chat up a dude. And it won’t guarantee your ‘success’ and make sure you get anyone you want into bed, because guaranteeing that would be spectacularly dishonest.
It took me a solid ten years to suss the “talk to women” bit, daft as it sounds. To be fair it’s not the women that’s the problem, it’s, as nemo said similarly above, turning from a cripplingly shy odd looking teenager to a cripplingly shy odd looking adult. The person inside still has the problem, no matter what gender they are talking to.
So your argument against pickup artists is that they tell men how to talk to women, rather than just telling them “go talk to women”?
You’ve probably have conversations with men that were fun and flirty, and others that were dull small talk. This isn’t just luck. Saying hello doesn’t set you on a path towards sex, the conversation has to be taken in that direction – which is a delicate skill.
No. My argument: “The thing that will most dramatically increase the odds of any guy sleeping with, or having a relationship with a particular woman, is talking to her.”
Sure, conversation can be done well or badly: with consideration and care and interest or via attempted manipulation, dodgy lines and excessive pressure. The thing which has the biggest impact on success, for “shy, nerdy guys” that PUAs claim to be helping, is that they go from a ‘talking to no women’ situation to a ‘talking to SOME women’ situation. I’d argue, too, that the techniques PUAs teach are incredibly bad conversational ones, because they do not involve listening to women and what they actually want, rather they involve treating women like we’re video games, and if you press the right buttons you’ll ‘win.’ Better conversations involve two-way communication, as well as the understanding that not all women are going to be attracted to you.
You said “Saying hello doesn’t set you on a path towards sex”, and you’re right, but if you think that learning the correct cheat codes, applicable to any conversation, will work to ‘set you on a path towards sex’ I’d recommend you step back and have a look at what that says about your attitudes towards women. You have met and spoken to guys you liked, and guys you didn’t, right? Well, women are the same. We sometimes like some people, and sometimes like others. We have different perspectives and opinions and beliefs. We are people.
Being a late bloomer (man) myself, I read The Game after being introduced to the other sex.
While reading, at first I felt jealous of the easy success of getting a woman into bed. In later chapters, I felt a certain loneliness for the narrator as it seems to be mostly one-night-stands or short term gigs. Nothing seemed to be for a longer – lasting – relationship. That seems to be confirmed by his later book [1].
So if one-night-stand sex is your goal, follow The Game as a manual to give you confidence. However, if you’re into more serious long term relationships, you’re on your own. I don’t think that talking ‘down'[2] to a woman will give you a long term relationship.
A different viewpoint: A very old friend, aged 18, used to say to look the girl deeply into their eyes would melt their inhibitions and lead to sex with them. He was quite successful with that tactic.
1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Truth:_An_Uncomfortable_Book_About_Relationships
2: I find the idea of talking down demeaning. But reading GOTN’s posts tells me it works for some girls.
“if one-night-stand sex is your goal, follow The Game as a manual to give you confidence.”
No, don’t, because The Game advises people to do things which are disrespectful and rude at best, and downright harmful and abusive at worst. You’re writing as if the only thing that matters is whether or not you get laid, when actually other people matter as well.
“I find the idea of talking down demeaning. But reading GOTN’s posts tells me it works for some girls.”
Firstly, I doubt that you find the idea of talking down demeaning, because you are talking down to women throughout your comment – writing as if the only thing that matters is *your* goal (getting laid or having a long term relationship) and ignoring the fact that women are also people. You say ‘I don’t think talking down to a woman will give you a long term relationship’ like that is the only possible reason why one might want to avoid it. As if the only thing that you should consider in your interactions with women is what you will ‘get’ out of them.
Secondly: talking down to women *is* demeaning. Sometimes it’s demeaning in an acceptable context (i.e. where you’re doing kinky roleplay and both of you recognise that you’re playing within agreed boundaries, which respect each other’s autonomy and choice). Other times, like in your comment, it just makes you seem like a bit of a nob.
It‘s no longer irritating to pronounce it PUA if you say as it would be pronounced in most central European languages.
Poooh Ah
(yes it‘s a bad joke. But it makes me laugh whenever I read about PUA. Which is the best we can do with them: laugh at them)
At a social event once I went up to a girl, said “Hello, my name is X.Y., nice to meet you” – then I literally run out of things to say. At first she looked at me surprised, then puzzled, then with s “he’s weird” look and walked away. So for a boring, small, ugly guy like me the “talk to women” is just one more from the “shit advice women give” – I cannot actually talk to women (for the record, I cannot talk to men either). I haven’t read any PUA books, I doubt they are any better. My advice? Get a good job, earn enough money so you can afford a sex worker if you want to have sex.
So… genuine question: what did you expect to happen there? Why are you angry at me because my advice (‘talk to women!’) is going to involve you doing something slightly more than just saying hello? It isn’t that my advice is shit, it’s that you seem to believe it’s literally magical – that all you need to do is introduce yourself to women and they will throw themselves upon your dick. And that is… not how the world works. For the record, though, you came infinitely closer to sleeping with *that* woman than you did with any of the women you didn’t actually talk to.
It seems like you want some advice for a person who wants to have sex, but who is not willing to put themselves outside their comfort zone or invest any effort. And for what it’s worth, in that scenario, my advice usually is ‘talk to a sex worker.’ https://www.girlonthenet.com/blog/on-making-your-sexualfantasy-come-true/
I certainly did not expect sex. I read that men should listen, so I think I kind of expected her to talk, then I could listen – but this is not my point. My point is that the “talk to women” advice to many of us is about the same as telling the lame to “get up and walk”. It’s not about getting outside some comfort zone – it’s genuine lack of ability.
Ah come come now – you’re far too hard on yourself. Look at what you’re doing here, eh? You’re talking to a woman! We’re having a discussion! It’s just that the discussion we’re having involves you berating me for your sadness at the fact that women do not come with a ‘cheat’ manual or a string in our backs you can pull to get us to say key words and phrases. What’s happening here isn’t a lack of ability, as evidenced by the fact that you clearly *can* have conversations with women when you want to tell us what we’ve done wrong or how we have failed you. The thing you lack here, I reckon, is empathy.
No, we’re not talking. I’m typing into a text box. I thought that you of all people, who have trouble calling the optician over phone would understand it. Let me repeat my point: people like me lack the ability to talk to people, to chat.
Gonna blow your mind here: you can meet women on the internet by typing into text boxes too.
Seriously, the problem is not that you can’t, the problem is that you don’t want to try, and potentially fail. I get it, but then why berate someone for giving advice when you’ve already decided that even the simplest piece of advice (talk to women!) is so far outside your comfort zone you will literally never be able to do it. What do you want me to do? Pop a sex robot in the post for you?
So this is the oldest article I’ve ever posted a comment on.
I too want to push back against the idea that it’s as simple as “Talk to Women”.
And notice I said simple not easy. Because you made quite clear that you’re not saying it’s easy. For example:
“Yeah, it’s hard. But it’s hard because, whenever you are meeting someone new you’re putting yourself out there and saying ‘do you like me?’ which is bloody difficult because there’s always the option that they’ll turn around and say ‘no.’ And that hurts your self-esteem, and therefore it’s tricky.”
But here’s the thing, I HAVE talked to women. I have approached women in bars. I’ve gone to meetup type things and evening classes and Talked To Women. I must have messaged four to five hundred women on online dating apps over the years (and yes, Every.Single.Message referenced something from their profile and asked them a question. Probably a 1/100 response rate. No dates).
By your logic I should have at least managed a one night stand. But no, I’m still desperately lonely and miserable, and jealous of all the people out there hooking up and having fun while all I’ve ever had is rejection.
OK, pity party for me. But I’m not asking anyone to feel sorry for me, and I’m not saying I’m entitled to anything. I certainly don’t blame all those women for rejecting me.
I do want some help though (I’m not expecting you to provide it, obvs. It’s not what you do), and the only people who actually seem to offer any real actionable advice are the PUA types. The names have changed since this was written, but it’ still the stuff. And honestly, I wish that wasn’t the case, because I’ve read tons and tons and tons of PUA stuff over the years, and never actioned any of it because it makes me cringe. But there’s just nothing else besides endless platitudes about being yourself, or, indeed, just talking to women.
I read your post about talking about things your passionate about, and asking them about what they’re passionate about, and it made me laugh. You described being alone in your house with a guy and listening to him talk about final fantasy. I can’t get to the point where I’m alone with a women. How would I enact that advice? Walk up to a random woman in Starbucks and ask her what she’s passionate about?
“I can’t get to the point where I’m alone with a women. How would I enact that advice? Walk up to a random woman in Starbucks and ask her what she’s passionate about?”
You say you’ve had a 1/100 response rate on dating sites, and that you’ve talked to women at meetup type things and evening classes: these are the times to ask women about their passions. When you’re conversing with someone and they interest you, invite them to tell you more and encourage them to talk further. What else could you be talking to them about on dating sites/at meetups/at evening classes?
From the way your message is written I’d hazard a guess that the reason you’re not having much luck is because you’re seeing every interaction you have with a woman that doesn’t end in sex as a waste of your time. Did you have fun at the evening classes? Did you meet any women who told you good jokes or spoke about interesting topics? What did these women bring to your life? Did you enjoy their company? If you are interacting with women in the ways you describe, and you’re not finding anything at all that you actually like about them, writing them off as if they’re broken toasters because they did not leap into bed with you, then it sounds to me like you don’t really like women very much. Coupled with the fact that you talk about ‘women’ in such a wildly broad, homogenous way gives me a bit of pause before even replying to be honest. Were there any *specific* women that you liked? If so why? What is it about an individual woman that makes you think ‘ah I’d like to get to know her more/take her out/maybe sleep with her’? Is there ever anything? Or do you just see ‘woman’ and think ‘person who might dispense sex’ without really caring much about the individual characteristics of this one in particular?
“By your logic, I should have at least managed a one night stand.” Oh no, you mistake me. I am not ever guaranteeing someone sex off the back of my advice (here is where I will radically differ from any PUA stuff you might read). I would never dream of saying ‘if you do X and Y then you will get laid’ because no one can guarantee that. I can give you advice in certain directions to help you stand a better chance of getting noticed (and ‘talk to women!’ is exactly that), or tips for helping people warm to you/come out of their shell (ask about her passions!), but if you define success by ‘have I got naked with a woman’ and see *no value in any other interactions you might have with women that don’t involve them shagging you*, then not only would I not say you should ‘at least managed a one night stand’, I would not be surprised at all that you haven’t had much luck.
‘Talking to women’ is not a *sufficient* condition for sex, merely one of many *necessary* conditions (https://www.girlonthenet.com/blog/right-to-sex/). Women aren’t vending machines which will dispense sex if you press the right buttons – we are people, just like you are. Talk to us, get to know us, make us feel good about ourselves, listen to us, pay attention, make connections and be friendly. It’s not magic or rocket science, but I understand why – if you view women in this way – it may seem like it.
Thanks for replying, I genuinely wasn’t expecting one, and it’s easily the best thing to happen to me this weekend.
“You say you’ve had a 1/100 response rate on dating sites, and that you’ve talked to women at meetup type things and evening classes: these are the times to ask women about their passions.”
I’ve rarely had conversations that move past the surface level (there’s a couple of exceptions, I’ll get back to that). My conversations on dating apps usually look like this:
“I see you said you like $band. Have you ever seen them live? I saw them last year at such and such venue”
She replies, we exchange a couple of messages then she ghosts. I don’t really get much chance to explore the inner workings of their minds.
“Did you have fun at the evening classes?”
To be fair, I only went to one evening class, which was a creative writing class that ran for eight weeks. Most of the other things I’ve gone to have been “interest or activity base meetups”. Think board games, coffee evenings, generic $your_city socials. I’ve enjoyed some and not others. I will freely admit that the only reason I made myself go to most of them was to try to make friends and meet people. I’m really not THAT interested in board games.
“Did you meet any women who told you good jokes or spoke about interesting topics? “
Yes, I did.
“ If you are interacting with women in the ways you describe, and you’re not finding anything at all that you actually like about them”
I’m sorry, and I mean that, I am actually sorry. I obviously communicated really badly last time. I found lots that I liked about some of the women I met (well, at a very surface level. We mainly just talked about whatever thing we happened to be doing at the whatever event I met them at. I wouldn’t say I got to know anyone, male or female, all that well. They might have all been serial killers for all I know. In which case I suppose I had a lucky escape. There. A therapist told me once I should re-frame things in a more positive manner.).
“You talk about ‘women’ in such a wildly broad, homogeneous way gives me a bit of pause before even replying to be honest.
In my defence, it was broad comment. I would struggle to discuss the hundreds of women who have rejected me on tinder, okcupid and in various real world locations in anything more than a series of broad sweeping generalisations, unless I was typing out a dissertation on it. And I assure you, no one would want to read it.
“Were there any *specific* women that you liked? If so why?”
Yes. I didn’t bother going into any specific details, but OK. The last women I actually got to know in in real depth was at my creative writing class. We got talking about Star Trek, because we’re both huge trekkies, and she was as clever, funny, and always laughing. We talked a lot throughout the course of class. Our political views aligned, we had numerous shared interests. I asked her out on the penultimate week. She turned me down. Really politely and kindly. I was devastated. The end.
“ you define success by ‘have I got naked with a woman’ and see *no value in any other interactions you might have with women that don’t involve them shagging you*, then not only would I not say you should ‘at least managed a one night stand’, I would not be surprised at all that you haven’t had much luck.”
Actually, I’d like to just have more friends in general, male and female. I just think, and the evidence seems to back me up on this, that I am not equipped with the particular set of social skills required do that, or to spark sexual or romantic interest. There’s a whole heap of reasons why I turned out like this, but they’re not important. Doing something about it is.
Although yes, I would like to get naked with a woman. I don’t think that’s a bad thing, and I don’t think I need to feel bad about having that as a goal.
“I can give you advice in certain directions to help you stand a better chance of getting noticed (and ‘talk to women!’ is exactly that), or tips for helping people warm to you/come out of their shell (ask about her passions!)”
Right, and I’m not saying your advice is wrong, but social skills are a thing, and you can learn them. To go back to my somewhat sarcastic example, You’re obviously not suggesting I walk up to random women in Starbucks and ask them what their passions are. That’s ridiculous.
But you did suggest asking women at meetups about their passions. I’m not arguing with you, I’m sure you’re right. But like, how?
I’m at a coffee meetup. I’m sure the conversation shouldn’t go like this:
“This is nice coffee $woman_I met_thirty_seconds_ago”
“I preferred the other one”
“So, what are you passionate about?”
But I have no idea how it should go. I just have no idea how to do any of this. And you sort of said it yourself. Telling me to “just talk to people” is sort of like me telling you to learn electrical engineering by sitting you down in front of Kicad and asking you to design a PCB. We learn by doing, sure, but a little bit of instruction is nice too (analogy may fall apart if you are actually an electrical engineer).
“see *no value in any other interactions you might have with women that don’t involve them shagging you*, then not only would I not say you should ‘at least managed a one night stand’, I would not be surprised at all that you haven’t had much luck.”
You obviously don’t know me, but if this is how I came across then I am aghast at myself. Although this might be what I mean, I can’t imagine why you took that impression away from what I wrote, but you obviously did, so clearly I’m not projecting the image I want to.
I’m just fed up of trying and trying and failing and failing. I don’t feel entitled to anything. I just feel sad.