I’m 5′ 11”. In my life, I have slept with a fair few men, most of whom were the same height as, or taller than me. Am I horribly shallow? No, not really. But I can tell you that as a tall girl it’s genuinely quite difficult to find shorter guys who are actually willing to fuck me.
Of those who might be up for a shag, many have spent a long time making excruciatingly tedious comments about how massive I am, or listing ways in which I need to slightly adjust (take off heels, slouch a bit, sit down) in order to meet with their approval. That tends to put me off a bit, to be honest.
So I get a teeny tiny bit fucked off with articles such as this one, in which the author explains that tall women wouldn’t date him because he is short. I get even more fucked off with the comments, in which people explain – repeatedly – that women are judgmental and shallow because they won’t sleep with shorter guys.
Here are some examples:
“You would expect most people who use the Guardian’s dating site – soulmates – to be feminists.
It amazes me how many women make a fuss about the height of their potential partner. “Sorry guys I’m tall and wouldn’t date anyone shorter than me,” is a regular proviso.”“Women don’t like (as partners) men who are shorter than them, or weaker than them, or less professionally sucessful than them. How this can be reconciled with feminism is, well, left as an exercise for the reader…”
“Men who say “no fat chicks” are generally considered unpleasant.
Women who say “I won’t date a guy under 6ft” don’t face any disapproval.”
You must be this tall to ride
Are they right? Do lots of women say ‘no short guys’? Hmm. Some do, and I’m going to assume for this post that it’s widespread. It’s definitely more common than people saying – as the grotesque commenter above pointed out – ‘no fat chicks’, but I’m guessing people who wouldn’t date someone because they’re fat are less likely to openly say so. They’re more likely to filter out via profile photos, thus keeping their general hatred for fat people hidden deep in their rotting soul where no one else can see it.
So: let’s assume loads of women say ‘no short guys.’ Given that it indicates a certain level of shallowness, as mentioned above – why on earth would they say it out loud?
Well, firstly it’s because if height matters, stating it up front may cut down on people who lie about it. I have dated guys before who, while I couldn’t give a toss about their height, have very clearly lied about it on their dating profile. I once turned up to a date with someone and genuinely didn’t recognise him, because he’d listed himself as 6 foot and he was actually 5′ 5”. Annoying, because it meant I broke my straight run of ‘being the first person to say ‘hi’ on the OKC date because I’m so nifty at recognising the difference between profile pics and life.’
He’s not the only one. OKTrends (the OKCupid data blog, which – be aware – is not only fairly out of date but sometimes makes some pretty alarming/weird links) points out that men, on average, lie to the tune of 2 inches when talking about their height. Women lie too, apparently, and they lie upwards as well, which I find super-interesting but it’s probably not relevant here.
Basically: people lie about height. So if you really do care about height then – although personally I think it’s a fucking horrible criteria on which to judge whether someone’s a fun person – you have to state up-front that it’s important, so your potential dates know that they won’t be able to laugh it off when they rock up and can’t get on the rollercoasters.
Why won’t tall women date short men?
Now the important question: why on earth would it matter? Why are these tall women being so cruel as to reject guys on the basis of their height? It is, after all, pretty mean. And self-destructive, because it could lead them to miss out on an awesome shag/boyfriend/husband.
I think the answer lies in the original article.
Headlined “Tall women rarely fancy small men – that explains my traumatic dating years”, I expected it to be a lament about times when tall women had turned the author down, or told him they simply couldn’t cope with the height difference and maybe could he stand on a box or something. But let’s take a look at his examples:
“During my traumatic dating years, I briefly went out with a couple of taller women, but found my shaky self-esteem couldn’t really cope.”
That’s sad. It really is, and I feel for him. As a tall woman, I have struggled with this a few times. It hasn’t stopped me dating short guys though, and it certainly doesn’t back up his ‘tall women don’t fancy me’ scenario.
“I once met a girl of Taylor Swiftian stature at a bar… we were both on stools … there came a moment where I slid off said stool. Naturally I assume she greeted this with the same horror Samantha [In Sex and the City] does… it bothered me. If this fling goes anywhere, I thought, would I be able to stand up in public again?”
Again – his problem. Notice he doesn’t say anything at all about her reaction, only that he assumed she would ‘greet this with horror.’ He doesn’t say if she actually greeted this with horror, but there’s a teeny clue as to how horrified she was by his height in what happens between them next…
They go on the second date.
Yep. So horrified was she by his stature that she went out with him again. Sounds to me like she’s not bothered. Him, on the other hand?
“I confirmed that I wouldn’t [be able to stand up in public again] when we went on a second date that involved playing pool in a bar… lo and behold, a small crowd of men gathered around us, sniggering smuttily at regular intervals. Now, a gentleman would have told them to locate their manners or face the consequences. But I was too busy focusing on how I could get from my chair to the table without standing up.”
Again, none of this was a result of what she’d said or done. She’d gone on another date with him, presumably because she fancied him, and it was his own insecurity that did the rest of the work. This scenario is a far cry from ‘tall women won’t date short men,’ – in fact it’s ‘I, a short man, can’t date tall women.’
Later in life, he got married:
“My wife is that (disputed) half an inch shorter than me, and only a pair of heels away from being two inches taller than me, hence why I’ve encouraged her Converse trainer habit.”
Oh. I see. You ‘encourage’ your wife to make herself smaller because you cannot cope with a measly couple of inches of heel?
He’s not the only one – I’ve had guys ask me to wear flats, or tell me they feel uncomfortable that I’m tall, or any number of things that imply I should somehow make myself smaller so they don’t feel awkward. When I tweeted about this yesterday, I got a variety of responses from taller women:
- One whose date asked her to ‘wear lower shoes’, even though she was already in ballet flats
- One whose dad reacted with disgust when she reached teenage years and became taller than him
- One who got a serious back problem from stooping all the time
- One whose lover said it was impossible to *really* fall for her because of her height
To fuck me you must become smaller
Here’s my theory on why tall women won’t date short men: maybe they’re fucking sick of this shit. Maybe they, like me, have dated some short guys, and become frustrated with their dogged insistence that we wear flats, or stoop, or take up less space in order to protect their fragile egos. Perhaps their stipulation that a guy be tall comes not from an arbitrary decision about which height is sexiest, and instead from years of having to put up with guys who’ll moan about height and tell them to wear different shoes and even then complain woe-is-me about their shitty luck at having to ‘cope’ with a woman who towers over them.
Society tells us that in a het couple the guy should be taller than the girl. Society is wrong, and bad, and needs to sit in a corner and think about what it’s done. So I don’t lack sympathy for shorter guys who feel insecure, or indeed for tall girls like me who’ve occasionally worn flats or cricked their necks or leant on a convenient bench to try and appear smaller. I understand that this shit is hard.
But if I can understand that this shit is hard, then surely short blokes can too. And so can the hordes of angry Guardian commenters who are using ‘shallowness’ as an explanation when there’s far more to it than that.
There’s now one comment on the article that nails it for me, I think:
“I’m rather tall for a woman, but hardly freakishly so – somewhere between 5’8″ and 5’9″. I’ve dated men from 5’5″ to 6’4″ and almost all of them have made negative comments about my height (yes, even the 6’4″ fellow – he apparently needs to really tower over a woman to feel comfortable). And no, none of the shorter ones were wealthy – I was genuinely interested in them as people. I have a couple female friends in the 5’7″ to 5’8″ range who have also dated men a bit shorter than they are and have also received negative comments on their heights.”
If you were a tall woman, and this was what you had to put up with from past lovers, when the author of this article asked you on a date, shuffling awkwardly and making clear that the height difference was a problem for him, would you go on a fucking date with him?
So here’s my theory: while it’s more than possible that we are shallow, and it’s certainly true that we’re influenced by society’s attitudes, there’s another possibility we should entertain too:
Maybe we are sick of this bullshit.
71 Comments
Ha! Interesting.
I’m 5’10. I once had a dude ask me to dance at some club. When I stood up, he back away from me in horror as he realised how tall I was. I kid you not He literally put his hands up and backed away, apologising as if I’d drawn a gun. As if I was a monster. It was hilarious and bizarre.
I’ve only dated one man who was significantly shorter than me: he was super confident about it. OTHER men (mostly drunk ones with their mates) would sometimes say snide things to us in public. “Bit of a climb for you isn’t she mate hurr hurr?” We were both bemused and amused by it.
Ferns
Oh God that is truly bizarre. I occasionally get told I’m ‘intimidating’ which I have a suspicion is a combination of height and swearing – much lower bar for women to be classed as ‘scary’ or intimidating than men.
The comments from other people are SO ANNOYING. I don’t get them now, but my first boyfriend was quite short, and we used to get complete strangers asking us ‘how do you shag?’ like… umm… why do you care and wtf and argh?! It’s frustrating how even people who can get over the initial weird pressures we have to conform to expectations are rigorously policed by other people. Grr. I’m all angry now.
I would love to date a tall woman of 6ft+, but there are very few around. As a tall man, I admit to understating my height by a couple of inches as being abnormally tall tends to put off women – 6ft 4 does not sound as freakish as my current 6ft 6 height.
My wife is roughly my height. When I was younger, I had several “tall” girlfriends and – yes – we did get odd remarks. I also had several shorter girlfriends, one or two very diminutive.
I’m a sexual submissive, so I will admit that tall does push one or two important buttons. However stature is really less important than personality and… well, general sexual mojo. There’s always something to eroticize about any shape or size. I’m amazed and a bit saddened when people make a fuss and try to police this.
I’m a sexually submissive (most of the time) 5’8″ woman, and I totally agree with that being part of the power dynamic for me too! I like to wear heels, and it generally makes the dynamic feel better if the man I’m with is taller. I certainly have not ruled out any guys for being same-height or shorter, it’s just a nice dollop of icing on top of the erotic cake. (My boyfriend is 6’2″ and it’s definitely a little perk.)
I’m a fat woman of average height, and I can say that the number of men willing to post that they won’t date fat chicks is very, very high. They’ll try to sugarcoat it with language of “height-weight-proportional” or “I want someone who takes care of herself”, but that’s what they mean. And fine, good riddance, they’re not for me.
But I truly like dating shorter men, because I think they take a lot of the same crap from society that fat women do. They’re told that to be masculine they should be taller, we’re told that to be feminine we should shrink. The short man and the fat woman are a natural pairing, like peanut butter and chocolate.
Except for the few short guys who get all Napoleonic and over compensate by being hypermasculine jerks. But they’re a minority.
Since I’m commenting, Girl-on-the-Net, I’ll tell you I just read your book and really enjoyed it! You’ve got a great writing style and perspective. Thank you. :-)
Blimey – thanks so much for your kind words about my book! I actually have another coming out in March (shameless plug), so I’m currently in the ‘worrying’ stage and I hope the second one is as fun!
That sugar-coated language really hacks me off too. When I was online dating I’d often get guys asking ‘can I have a full body pic?’ – which roughly translates to ‘can I check you’re not fat?’ Needless to say, none of them got a date.
My girlfriend and I are roughly the same height; it doesn’t bother me one bit. She doesn’t wear heels very often (although I like it when she does) and I’ve asked her why before, she worries that I might feel bad if she’s taller than me.
O.o
If so, it’s a UK thing…
As in it’s a UK thing to judge people for being fat or a UK thing to not state it on your profile?
The latter. People here roll around with “No Fat Chicks” bumper stickers.
[Posted too soon.] And most people on OKCupid in particular cheerfully answer “Yes” or “Yes, but only if they were obese” to the question “If a match was overweight, would that be a dealbreaker?” Haven’t tried the other sites, but I doubt it’s specific to that one.
Tall women are the master race ;)
what
I showed up early for a date with a guy who had claimed to be 5’8″ (I’m 5’7″ on a good day and stated so in my profile). When he arrived, he was probably 5’5″ if I was being generous. He looked at me sadly and said “Wow, you’re taller than I expected,” and slumped down in a sort of “I give up” stance. That was before the hellos. Obviously that date didn’t go well, but he never gave me (or himself) a chance.
“he never gave me (or himself) a chance.” That made me so sad – and you’re totally right.
Being a woman and only 5 foot 1 I haven’t experienced any of this – I’m staggered to hear that some men actually behave this way, trying to force people down and alter how they look to protect their own ego. That’s horrendous.
I’m 6ft 2, and I’ve not dated many guys taller than me. That’s nothing to do with the preference, it’s just that most of the taller guys I’ve met have been in relationships.
The shorter guys I’ve dated haven’t been bothered at all about the height difference. They’d make the odd joke “Seriously, heels? are you taking the piss? I already need the yellow pages to fucking kiss you” – like the boy on the old advert. All said in jest.
I think what it boils down to is confidence. Not all guys like taller women, I’ve had comments before like “God you’re fucking amazing, I’d totally date you if you weren’t a giant.” – Thanks buddy!
My OH is 5ft7 (ish) and he has no problem at all with my height, there have been comments from people in the street when we have been out together. Usually rebuffed with him saying “Say anything else and I’ll get her to FE FI FO FUM Squish your ass”.
Society has said that guys should be taller than women, people need to tell society to fuck off otherwise they’ll spend the raest of their lives catering for ‘the expected’ and be miserable.
Hello ^.^
Coming from Twitter because I can’t work with 160 characters.
In summary the article appears to argue that up front dating criteria like “No men under 5ft 10in” are explained by experiences like those above. Because the physical feature of “being short” usually correlates with men having self esteem issues that undermine the relationship. The argument is that it isn’t really discrimination because it’s about the personality rather than physical features, and that this makes it more acceptable because at the end of the day many women are just fed up with trying to deal with these personality traits.
[If my summary of the article’s point is incorrect, then the premise for what follows is incorrect and there’s no need to bother with it because it will be wrong :) ]
So surely this same line of reasoning makes the “no fat chicks” disclaimers acceptable too?
—
Applying your own logic to the “no fat chicks” nastiness:
Neil writes:
“I’ve dated a few women who were overweight, and they always had deep seated self-esteem issues centered around their size, and this made it very hard to have a relationship when they’re constantly undermining themselves and not giving themselves a chance, the insecurity very often manifests itself as jealousy and controlling behaviour. I’ve had girlfriends who accused me of taunting them when I ordered ice cream for myself at a restaurant, or who wouldn’t speak to me for a week after I signed up for a gym membership. It can be very unpleasant and combatative. Maybe men who write “Looking for someone who looks after themselves well” are just sick of being attacked in a relationship because of the other person’s insecurities.
—
Personally, I don’t think either of these are more or less acceptable than each other.
“No fat chicks” and “No short dudes” are both, at their very best, generalising entire groups of people based on the bad experiences with one or two others.
I completely understand the reasoning behind this argument, but I can’t see how it makes the up front discrimination any more moral or agreeable?
Sorry – your summary’s incorrect. I’m not arguing that it’s OK to say ‘no short ppl’ – I think that’s mean and self-destructive: I say as much in the blog, a few times. I’m offering an explanation as to why people might think/say that, in counterpoint to the guy who argued that tall girls simply didn’t fancy him because of his height. So: ‘maybe they’re sick of the insecurity and shittiness [i.e. in the article examples/twitter examples]’ not ‘therefore it’s totally acceptable to judge ppl purely on height/weight etc’
Thank you for taking the time to explain where I’d missed the point ^.^
Tangentially related: I’m a medium-height fat woman, and I say in dating profiles that I am fat and happy and at ease in my body. I have no idea whether this would put someone who didn’t want to date an insecure woman at ease.
This is an interesting post!
I’m 5″10 and am not particularly attracted to short guys….saying that, slightly shorter, no issue but 5″5 and less, just doesn’t work for me. I say that on the basis that I have never met a shorter guy and had that major connection feeling. I have been with guys shorter than me and had some damn good fuck sessions but on a longer term basis, it’s the person I go for, it doesn’t matter the height, size, looks etc.
When I’ve been on dating sites and you put in your height, I’ve not really had many shorter than 5″8, contact me. But when I’ve met a guy when I’m out, I’ve meet many that are shorter and never had an issue. Does this boil down to confidence of those who are shorter? Who knows.
Just think it’s crazy to make assumptions about others,on a subject like this, we all have our own preferences in life, I suppose.
Good post x
Three of my more serious relationships involved men that were slightly shorter than me. I didn’t think I minded — until people started making comments. It bothered OTHER people. Not me. Not him (or the other him or the other other him). But other people acted like I was charity-dating a crippled baboon. And the next thing I knew, I was wearing flats. Not heels. Not ever. Because, God forbid, I look like I’d normally look, regardless of who I was dating.
Anyway, none of those relationships worked out for reasons other than height, and now my husband is 6’3, and I’m 5’6. And you know what? Not once in our entire relationship has ANYONE made a comment about our respective heights.
I think the bias is partly evolutionary instinct. People (consciously or subconsciously) think that the man should be big enough to protect his woman. And now here’s the other part of why I think it happens: because people are complete twat waffles who don’t realize that things that were important pre-Ice Age have no real bearing on successful relationships now. So, you know, back the fuck off and keep your opinions to yourself, okay? Maybe this short guy has the biggest dick ever. Or maybe he makes me laugh like whoa. Or maybe I love him for all the right reasons, and you’re sitting here being a douche nozzle about the man I love.
(Btw, the “you” in the above sentences isn’t YOU. It’s “you mean people that I don’t like.”)
Great post!
I think you’ve got it pretty much right. I mostly date other men, but if anything my being a shortarse has been /less/ of a problem when I’ve been dating women.
It does suck that wearing heels is only available as a solution when I’m not at work and am willing to take a fairly high risk of abuse if I go out in public, but that’s hardly women’s fault.
I’m 6ft7 but have normally put 6ft6 on dating sites. Because I think 6ft6 trips off the tongue, whereas 6ft7 sounds a bit much for any girl. I do generally find tall girls more elegant, but mentality and appetite for mischief is much more important. Being able to stand up straight and look a girl in the eye does feel good, so I like it when girls of any height wear heels. I do find that tall girls are generally looking for taller guys, and from a selfish perspective, I’m glad that they do. People don’t comment negatively when I’ve been out and about with a tall partner; that said, I get plenty of cliched comments myself just for being tall (which I don’t mind – it’s a natural reaction when unexpectedly coming across someone different).
For the record, I had two partners who were 5ft0, and who also liked a bit of vigour when having sex. They were quite sporty and flexible, and everything worked absolutely fine. I was briefly with a 6ft3 (I reckon even taller) Baltic girl, who was used to all her partners being smaller so height wasn’t a big thing for her (kissing upwards when she wore big heels was weird though!)
From down here in the 4’10 country, I can tell you that dickishly expressed discomfort around taller women is a huge red flag for me in a dude. I’ve observed this discomfort be a tip of an insecurity iceberg the size of Pluto; sure, he won’t ask a shorter girl to wear flats, but he’ll need her to make herself small in other areas of life where he perceives himself to be lacking.
I’m 5 ft 4 and I’ve met a few men who insisted I was 5 ft 2 to make themselves feel better at 5 ft 8. Something about a certain type of man wanting to be at least 6 inches taller than their ‘little lady’.
Both these keepers also revelled in how obedient I was not wearing heels when I was with them because they didn’t like it. They were both so self absorbed that they didn’t notice I don’t wear heels. In fact my bedroom (which they saw a fair bit of shall we say?) was positively littered with trainers and no heels. Not all women wear heels…
Oh and of course, with the cliche Adele Haze points out, both these charmers ‘suggested’ a few weeks in that I could stand to lose a bit of weight despite being a recovering anorexic. They wanted their women smaller in all ways. Not to take up too much space and not to challenge them.
Rightly or wrongly it’s put me off shorter men a bit having listened to them put me down to make themselves feel bigger. As a woman I’ve been told by men and by society generally over the years that every single bit of me is wrong or lacking or needs improvement in some way. I’ve been judged on my looks and my sexual conduct constantly and any time you mention the pressure of this, some guy who isn’t 6 foot starts to complain that some women don’t like ‘short’ men.
I know fighting prejudice with prejudice isn’t a good way to go, but cry me a fucking river that there’s one aspect of their appearance some men get judged on. I will never mock a guy for not being tall and dislike anyone doing it, but some perspective would be nice here.
Hi,
I’ve followed your blog, book etc. for quite a while but not visited in ages. Interesting that the whole height debate still rages on. As a bloke of 5’7″ on a good day I really hope you’re not becoming too jaded towards us shortarses. Lol. First of all I’ve gotta say that any bloke who expects you to adjust yourself in public cos of your height is an idiot – but then short people obviously can be dicks, same as anyone else.
I have to say though that my belief is that you are very much in the minority of women in not caring one jot about a man’s height (I could be wrong but that’s my belief and experience). I’ve definitely had women that I’ve got along great with, and maybe had a couple of drunken fumbles only to reach a stage when they reveal that unfortunately I don’t measure up to their tall, dark ideal. And this is from a couple of women who literally we were totally joyous in each other’s company – but still she just couldn’t see us together ‘properly.’ That totally bemuses me, but such is human nature. And dating apps/websites are almost complete tumbleweed zones for us shortarses, trust me (or maybe I’m just ugly or a twat – but I like to think not). Anyone who pretends to be 6 inches+ taller in their profile as you described needs to get a fucking grip though!
This subject is of extreme interest to me atm, as I’m kind of in a so far, online only relationship with a woman who, like you, is 5’11” (not you incognito is it? I wish, ;) lol). We’d been chatting for weeks before the subject of height came up. It came up because she and a friend were discussing the topic – her friend saying she could never contemplate going out with a man shorter than her. Luckily my online playmate doesn’t give a shit (again, not you is it?), although we strangely haven’t actually met in person yet – but then there are other complications making that difficult.
I do have some sympathy though, with the short blokes that have a problem with all this. I suspect that it’s mostly about the stupid attitudes and ridicule from others, that yourself and another commenter here relate to having experienced. As if those arseholes in the pub weren’t bad enough – on top of that there’s all the childish, pathetic, stupid ridicule from society in general and the media. As pathetic as it is, it can be pretty relentless and in our weaker moments can take its toll. It ends up making you feel sad for the state of human pettiness in the world – and you just don’t wanna have to put up with that shit spoiling every night out do you!
Anyway I’ll stop waffling on now – just don’t totally go off us vertically challenged types will you ;) (not that I think you really would, you seem too real for that). I hear you have a new book coming out? Looking forward to that. Your last one brightened up my commute to no end for a few weeks. Good luck with it. I’ll defo be getting a copy early. :)
i’m a 5’3″ man. i don’t use online dating sites but if i did i would have to start my profile with my height. standing on tiptoes to kiss a girl is insanely emasculating, but i don’t think its wrong to want to feel masculine. its just one of those facts of life. thats why i think women go for taller men and men go for shorter women. although when you’re my height, it seems that even shorter girls want someone taller.
I don’t think the argument “we’re not hunters anymore so shouldn’t matter how big and strong you are” is a good one because its only within a relatively small period of time that we got to this stage as a species, so i just don’t think its fully in our genes yet. It seems to me that this is why someones height factors in to our 3-second impression when we first see them. So its not shallow to not want to bang a guy cause you know your faces won’t line up when he’s on top of you. saying that though, it is strangely hot from my point of view lol (still emasculating)
some girls I’ve been with have gently teased me about my height (they’re a couple inches taller). made me feel bad but I’m happy that they were careful about the topic. one girl i was with got upset when i stood on her scales and i weighed less than her (if i was taller i would weigh more), so she’s there feeling insecure about her weight (not fat btw) and I’m feeling insecure about my height!
in relationships i can get jealous quite easily. i know it comes from my height, knowing that most guys are taller than me makes me feel that i could lose a partner just like that. if the girl is taller than me then i can get super paranoid parrot. of course i want to change but i know i’ll always be a bit insecure.
i wouldn’t ask my gf (you know my imaginary one) not to wear heels if she wanted to, and i cannot imagine her slouching just to make me feel better, cause tbh none of it makes a difference
so when i read this article i noticed that you have pretty much framed it as “why can’t short men just give women a break” which to me is complete fuckery.
“Maybe they, like me, have dated some short guys, and become frustrated with their dogged insistence that we wear flats, or stoop, or take up less space in order to protect their fragile egos.”
i can see people doing this but what, you think every short guy you’re with is an emotional wreck who subtly forces you into submission with every opportunity? i don’t think you do.
i think that you feel bad that you don’t find short men attractive but you don’t want to admit it. why is it so bad to just have a preference? why are you necessarily bad if you don’t want to date a fat person? why can’t you realise that your “theory” is just your minds way of treating your guilt by painting a picture of a world where short men are bitter about their lives and don’t want anyone to have any fun because its so unfair. the real reason which to be fair you did touch on, is a hard-wired biological and social expectation that tall people are better, and we are all coming to terms with it while you shift the blame so that at least its not your fault that people feel bad.
Aight, here goes:
“i don’t think its wrong to want to feel masculine”
I don’t agree with equating height and masculinity.
“I don’t think the argument “we’re not hunters anymore so shouldn’t matter how big and strong you are” is a good one”
I didn’t say it was. It sounds like you’re arguing against someone else, who has said some different things?
“so when i read this article i noticed that you have pretty much framed it as “why can’t short men just give women a break” which to me is complete fuckery.”
No, I think you need to read the article properly. What I’m actually saying is ‘it’s not OK to make women feel like shit/adjust their behaviour if they’re tall, just because of your own insecurities.’ If it makes you feel any better though, you’re not the only short guy who’s read this and blown a gasket because you think I’m saying all of you are like this.
“you think every short guy you’re with is an emotional wreck who subtly forces you into submission with every opportunity? i don’t think you do.”
No, I don’t. I haven’t said it either, so I’m not sure why you feel the need to argue against a point I didn’t make.
“i think that you feel bad that you don’t find short men attractive but you don’t want to admit it. why is it so bad to just have a preference?”
Again, no. In fact, I don’t have a height preference when it comes to guys. As evidenced by the blog post I wrote that you didn’t read.
” why can’t you realise that your “theory” is just your minds way of treating your guilt by painting a picture of a world where short men are bitter about their lives and don’t want anyone to have any fun because its so unfair.”
Or it’s a point about some (not all – I can’t believe you’re stooping to generalisations. tut tut) guys, based on the examples I cited repeatedly in the blog post.
“the real reason which to be fair you did touch on, is a hard-wired biological and social expectation that tall people are better, and we are all coming to terms with it”
OK, so you’re angry about my blog because you think it makes harsh generalisations about short people, and you conclude by spouting some bollocks about how tall people are inherently better. Amazing.
I’ve been writing something this week about self-image and cycling – how only now I’m realising I’m not as big/tall as I thought I was. (https://toriacycling.wordpress.com/2016/02/06/size-self-image-and-cycling/ if you’re interested).
I have to confess, I’m only really attracted to men who are ‘bigger’ than me. I think that’s why I go for rugby men. I spend a lot of time cycling, but the typical skinny arms do nothing for me. I’ve tried to keep an open mind and have dated smaller, but as I’ve tried to explain, I feel quite big and clumsy, and to feel feminine and sexy, the man needs to at least have bigger thighs than me!
Hi Toria – thanks for adding the link to your blog. You make some really interesting points about perception – the way you’ve perceived yourself when you’re younger versus now looking back at the photos. I think I’ve had similar moments – that lightbulb moment when your internal image comes up against an actual image and you go ‘huh, so I actually don’t/didn’t look like that at all.’ Really interesting.
I see what you mean about the ‘feminine and sexy’, though, and I find it quite frustrating – we seem to automatically conflate being ‘small’ with being feminine, versus large as masculine. I’d quite like for us to get away from that – for the sake of shorter blokes, and taller women, and non binary people and etc etc.
Really really enjoying reading your blog. I think I shall seek out your book.
About this post. When I read it, I did not get the impression that you think all short guys are insecure. But you did seem to be arguing – and I apologize if I’m misreading you – that a possible explanation for a preference for taller guys is lots of experience dealing with insecure shorter guys. If shorter guys were as likely to be confident as insecure, then the experiences should be, on average across many of the women and men dating them, approximately an even split.
Now perhaps the tendency is for women who don’t want to date shorter guys to be the ones who’ve had bad experiences with them, and the women who’ve dated the confident shorter guys don’t preclude dating shorter guys as an option. That is to say, perhaps they’re generalizing based on their own anecdotal experiences, which would be prejudice by definition, specifically the expectation of a certain behavior based on how people look. On the other hand, if a woman didn’t want to date a short guy because she didn’t feel any attraction to someone shorter than herself, that would be preference, not prejudice, as it doesn’t make any generalizations about other people, it merely expresses what she’s in to.
I think most people recognize that everyone has preferences, and since they themselves probably also have preferences, it would be hypocritical to judge other people for theirs. But I also think many, if not most, people recognize that it’s rude and hurtful to openly dismiss people based on that, but not wrong to do it privately. The differences in degree, I think, comes down to historical context. Brunette, at least in Western society, has never been much of an insult. Fat has and often is still used hatefully. Short is somewhere in between, less common as an insult than fat, but more than brunette. Denigration of short height even crops up in our idiom without us usually noticing it or meaning it derogatorily…look down on, doesn’t measure up…expressions we use without thinking. As such, it’s potential to offend is also somewhere in between. Just my highly inexpert half-baked theory.
One thing I hope all rational people can agree on is that neither insecurity nor prejudice are the sole province of any group of people, and that no physical trait determines that someone will be insecure or prejudice. But societal norms that denigrate certain physical traits do make those traits more difficult to possess, and the more you have to fight social expectations simply to be who and what you are, the more you have to consciously avoid internalizing those same prejudices or reversing them and assuming everyone else is a secret bigot hating on you. And just as someone can unconsciously internalize prejudice towards them and become everything from insecure to self-hating while projecting it and believing it’s coming only from other people, we all internalize prejudices by dint of living in a society pervaded by them. It’s baked into the social fabric, and requires conscious effort to overcome prejudiced behavior towards others. Preference isn’t prejudice, but some certainly think of both as being bigotry, which is why I think a lot of people push back on preferences against traits frequently denigrated by social norms.
Sorry for the long post and my arrogant tone. I wish to acknowledge that I could be totally wrong on all or some of the points I’ve made.
Regards,
Gulliver
“If shorter guys were as likely to be confident as insecure, then the experiences should be, on average across many of the women and men dating them, approximately an even split.”
Sure, and that may well be the case. I haven’t done a study or anything. What I’m saying, though, is that it’s not uncommon for some guys (like the bloke in the original Guardian article) to obliviously make women feel bad about being taller than them. Look at the examples: women are repeatedly asked to make themselves smaller. Made to feel shit for being tall. Etc etc etc. I can understand why this may make some women wary of being in that kind of relationship.
“Now perhaps the tendency is for women who don’t want to date shorter guys to be the ones who’ve had bad experiences with them, and the women who’ve dated the confident shorter guys don’t preclude dating shorter guys as an option. That is to say, perhaps they’re generalizing based on their own anecdotal experiences, which would be prejudice by definition, specifically the expectation of a certain behavior based on how people look. On the other hand, if a woman didn’t want to date a short guy because she didn’t feel any attraction to someone shorter than herself, that would be preference, not prejudice, as it doesn’t make any generalizations about other people, it merely expresses what she’s in to.”
I actually disagree on a lot of this, I think, and perhaps there’s a longer post in here somewhere about ‘preference’ versus ‘prejudice.’ Bottom line is that I think we do all have preferences, but that our preferences are frequently shaped by prejudice – not necessarily conscious prejudice, but prejudice nonetheless. If you’d asked me five years ago about it I’d probably have said ‘meh, I just fancy the guys I fancy.’ Whereas if you asked me today I’d be able to give you – if not an expert psychological profile, because I am not an expert – at least a fairly decent guess as to how my experience (including the society I’ve grown up in, unconscious biases, etc) has shaped the kind of people I’m likely to be attracted to.
“many, if not most, people recognize that it’s rude and hurtful to openly dismiss people based on that, but not wrong to do it privately.”
This maybe nails where I disagree – I *do* think it’s wrong to dismiss people like this privately, without examining whether your reasons for doing so might be unfair.
“Short is somewhere in between, less common as an insult than fat, but more than brunette. Denigration of short height even crops up in our idiom without us usually noticing it or meaning it derogatorily…look down on, doesn’t measure up…expressions we use without thinking.”
Yep – good point. ‘Short’ is frequently used in language as a way to diminish someone. However, let’s look at some of the other language we use: delicate, dainty, petite – all compliments when applied to women. As I mention in the piece, society is partly (and probably *mainly*) at fault for the way we think about people’s height, as well as the way we discuss it. And, alongside the fact that smaller guys are treated badly, comes the fact that taller women are not just treated badly but *actively encouraged to make themselves small.* Including, often, by the guys they love – as in the example from the original article – the author ‘encourages’ his wife to wear Converse rather than heels. He’s not just saying ‘society makes me feel bad for being short’, he’s joking about how he actively pushes his wife to make herself feel smaller to preserve his ego.
“But societal norms that denigrate certain physical traits do make those traits more difficult to possess, and the more you have to fight social expectations simply to be who and what you are, the more you have to consciously avoid internalizing those same prejudices or reversing them and assuming everyone else is a secret bigot hating on you.”
Hmm. Problem with this, though, is that to a certain extent you’re saying to people ‘the more you’re shat on, the more polite you have to be to those who are shitting on you.’ I think there are many, many situations in which it’s more than understandable for people to throw their hands up and say ‘you know what? I’m sick of this.’
“And just as someone can unconsciously internalize prejudice towards them and become everything from insecure to self-hating while projecting it and believing it’s coming only from other people, we all internalize prejudices by dint of living in a society pervaded by them.”
Yep. But I think the problem I have here is not with internalized prejudice necessarily – it’s with oblivious, externalised behaviour. I’m not annoyed with
the original Guardian writer because he is insecure or sad about being short – if he’d written a piece about that I’d probably have offered him support and said that I think it’s shit we live in a society that makes him feel that way. But that’s not what he did: he wrote a blog post about how ‘tall women won’t date me’, which actually was about how *he* wouldn’t date *them.* He then explained how he expects his wife to alter her behaviour for him, and lamented the unfairness of the world.
“What I’m saying, though, is that it’s not uncommon for some guys (like the bloke in the original Guardian article) to obliviously make women feel bad about being taller than them. Look at the examples: women are repeatedly asked to make themselves smaller. Made to feel shit for being tall. Etc etc etc. I can understand why this may make some women wary of being in that kind of relationship.”
As can I. I would only hope that they don’t therefore assume that this is just the sort of treatment they can expect from short guys. The Guardian article author is a projecting twit, trying to make women responsible for his own obvious insecurities. And I can certainly understand why any given woman would start to be a little wary of short guys if she had a string of experiences being put down by short guys for her own height. But, as they say on the interwebs, #NotAllShortGuys
“Bottom line is that I think we do all have preferences, but that our preferences are frequently shaped by prejudice – not necessarily conscious prejudice, but prejudice nonetheless.”
Hmm, I actually agree with that. Preferences (and I should probably specify that I’m talking about mere physical preferences here, not behavioral or cultural) can and often are shaped by prejudices (in sense of overgeneralized expectations of what the character that goes along with a physical trait). But I still think physical preferences and prejudice, though they interact, are two separate things. Simply put, I don’t think every aesthetic preference, whether it’s to other fellow human beings or the aesthetics of other aspects of our external world, are always the products of cultural or experiential inculcation, or that, even when they are, they are always entirely products of it. I think someone can have a preference independent of prejudice, but I agree with you insofar as the two are really massively tangled up and unraveling them is a never ending task (though that’s not to say we shouldn’t try or that we don’t learn something from even partial unraveling).
“This maybe nails where I disagree – I *do* think it’s wrong to dismiss people like this privately, without examining whether your reasons for doing so might be unfair.”
Okay, with that caveat, I’m in agreement with you. Unexamined preferences are bad for a lot of reasons, the potential that they could be influenced by prejudices being but one of many. What I don’t think someone should do is feel bad for not being being physically attracted to, for one example, brunette hair. But at the same time, I feel kind of bad for anyone for whom one physical trait overrides everything else physical and/or non-physical in their attraction to other people. After all, the gestalt of a person has its own beauty, and to dismiss the possibility of attraction to the sum for one part seems reductionary and sort of tragically self-limiting, IMHO.
“And, alongside the fact that smaller guys are treated badly, comes the fact that taller women are not just treated badly but *actively encouraged to make themselves small.* Including, often, by the guys they love – as in the example from the original article – the author ‘encourages’ his wife to wear Converse rather than heels. He’s not just saying ‘society makes me feel bad for being short’, he’s joking about how he actively pushes his wife to make herself feel smaller to preserve his ego.”
Again, I couldn’t agree more with you here. The prejudicial treatment of tall women is no less contemptible than that of short guys. And compounded on top of that are all the prejudices faced by women and not men.
“Hmm. Problem with this, though, is that to a certain extent you’re saying to people ‘the more you’re shat on, the more polite you have to be to those who are shitting on you.’ I think there are many, many situations in which it’s more than understandable for people to throw their hands up and say ‘you know what? I’m sick of this.’”
I don’t think people should have to deal with prejudice towards them. I maybe worded what I said sub-optimally. I was thinking of the Guardian article’s author, who seems to have essentially developed a prejudice towards tall women, and an assumption that everyone will denigrate him, because of the denigration he’s dealt with as a short guy. There’s no excuse for what he dealt with, and I don’t advocate him simply sucking it up and being polite about all of it, but he had and continues to have a choice whether he’ll internalize that prejudice and make blanket assumptions, or realize that a woman being taller than him doesn’t mean she’ll automatically denigrate him, or that all the other people around them will do the same.
“I’m not annoyed with the original Guardian writer because he is insecure or sad about being short – if he’d written a piece about that I’d probably have offered him support and said that I think it’s shit we live in a society that makes him feel that way. But that’s not what he did: he wrote a blog post about how ‘tall women won’t date me’, which actually was about how *he* wouldn’t date *them.* He then explained how he expects his wife to alter her behaviour for him, and lamented the unfairness of the world.”
Right. To my mind that’s him projecting all his insecurities onto other people, making them responsible for the self-loathing he apparently feels. I have sympathy for the self-loathing, not because I myself am short by societal standards (I’m 185 cm, which I mention solely lest I give the impression of personal stake), but because I sympathize with being the target of bigotry. What I don’t sympathize with, and what the sympathy I do have for him doesn’t justify, is how he’s used that as an empty excuse to treat his wife and other tall women badly.
Thank you kindly for the detailed and thoughtful response to my first comment. Apologies it took me a few days to respond.
As someone who is 5’9″/5’10”, I’ve never actually given any thought on the matter. Some of my partners have been taller, some have been shorter. I’ve never found height differential in either direction to be a problem. Men and women are just designed to fit together in my opinion.
It’s fine to have preferences; we’re all different and we all have them. No one is universally attractive to everyone (least of all me) and that’s what makes life interesting.
KW
I disagree on the prejudices thing, and now that two people have mentioned it I am going to bore you in detail about it in a future post =)
Also I know you don’t mean to be heteronormative etc but this: “Men and women are just designed to fit together in my opinion.” is so straight I could use it as a spirit level.
Just chiming in with a voice of support for your preferences vs prejudices idea. That would be a great post to read, I look forward to it. I’d also be interested to see how physical preferences and prejudices stack up alongside those that are more personality-based.
At 5’11, I prefer to date men my height or taller. I will date a couple inches shorter om occasion. I actually get lots of shorter men showing interest, especially 5’7. I’m also a plus sized person. I honestly think I’m too much woman for shorter guys. And the age old…it’s all equal on our backs is just a lie. Short in standing is still short in bed.
We all have a preference, I don’t see anything wrong with that. You might like chubby, thin, tall, short…it’s ok, just be happy.
As a 5’7” men, I could definitely say that height is a deal-breaker.
From my point of view, overweight ladies still have an edge over short men. At first, living in a more egalitarian gender society also brings different dating patterns which encourage women choosing their mates. Concretely, being short makes you ”unpicked” and most of your advances are dismissed at first sight (”Oh, I’ve got a family dinner, I’m very busy” and all these craps). Again, I would argue that this happen because short men do not fit in their dating narratives.
On the other hand, men always end up being physical while women (due to a social or physical bias) are mostly able to keep a reserve on their sex lives. On Tinder, it has been shown that men get so thirsty that they even date fake serial killer profiles (http://motherboard.vice.com/read/tinder-users-are-so-thirsty-theyll-swipe-right-on-aileen-wuornos-and-charles-manson). It shows how truly unbalanced are sexual interactions.
Consequently,
I’m 5.11 and my first love told me he wouldn’t go to the prom with me if I was wearing heels.
After having to put up with shit like that i’ve been very insecure about my height and it took me years to realise that actually I am beautiful tall and slim, with a nice figure and instead of feeling bad about it I should embrace it. I started wearing heels and feeling good about being taller than most people when I was 23-24. Now I wear heels even if a guy I’m currently dating is shorter than me. If he has a problem with that I won’t be dating him in the first place.
My first crush was the gorgeous daughter of some family friends, totally tomboy, strawberry blonde hair to her hips, freckles, fIve kilowatt smile, nordic blue eyes and 6’2″ in bare feet. Plus being very much an assertive leaderish type.
Le Sigh… :D
I was like five foot zero at the time (we were both thirteen) but completely smitten.
Amazon Goddesses are just …hot.
Rest assured, all the tall ladies, you have fans.
PS I’m 5’10” now, of course, having grown taller since then, but still. Taller is still *hot*. xxx
This blog made me think of my early 20’s, as I was rejected by the foxes who chased after the Alfa males and showed no more interest in me than glancing at a blade of grass next to the highway traveling at 75 MPH. And this made me think about my own personal experiences with tall women, a slightly different story from this blog, but same result due to being a Beta male.
One 6’ tall girl, in a gym, talked to me with such a look of disinterested she couldn’t have looked or acted more uninterested if she had wanted to. I approached another, who I estimated being 5 foot 9 or 10 inches. She got angry with me for even asking her out and stuck her finger in my face informing me she didn’t date shorter men. On line, I met a girl 5’11”, and we worked out together once in my apartment complex gym, after that she did not return my two phone calls, there could be others, too, I just don’t remember them all. Now, you may say the rejections were because of my looks, that could be true, but as I approached girls closer to my height, my success rate went way up.
This blog also made me think about the rejections by tall girls, and it angered me, but not at the time the rejection. Only years later, when I actually tallied them up, did I get angry. I was rejected not because I was fat, bald, ugly, deformed or had a rotten personality. No. The reason I was rejected by all of these women was my height. Not a one even bothered to put forth the effort to get to know me much less date me.
I did date three women who were significantly taller than me, two at 5’11” and one at 5’10”. (I am 5’8”) And all three happened to be 32 years of age, which is more than a coincidence and a tie in with this blog. No doubt all three wanted a tall Alfa male, and lost, so a safe stable Beta male was the next best thing in their 30’s, for I certainly didn’t grow any taller and I doubt I got better looking. These women were past their prime and worried. I was in my late 30’s, at this time of my life, after being married for 10 years. It was also at this time, I could easily date younger women, and I did. When I was 38, my first girlfriend was 27, the next was 27 and the next was 24 who became my second wife. I never dated with any intent of marrying a woman my age. Younger women had no issue with me dating them, and I certainly had no issue dating them. I remember going to singles events and seeing very pretty women, who were my age, who I know 15 years earlier would not have given me the time of day. And even now, they may have looked better than myself, but now it was me who had no interest in approaching them. I did not want to take time and money away from pursuing younger women. Why go old, when I could go young? I was amazed how the dating game changed in my favor. And I used it to my advantage, just as women had done years earlier.
I am now married and have 4 sons. I have 3 degrees, and I have co-authored 2 US patents. I could have provided a good life to any girl. I wanted a taller girl because of the physical turn on and to for fill one of my desires, yet not one single tall girl (in her 20’s) gave me a chance. I was turned down consistently and without a second thought. (Maybe due to the Alfa male fascination) So, if you find yourself in your late 20’s or early 30’s with no prospect of a husband or children in the immediate future, you have no one to blame but yourself. There were men like me, who wanted a leggy female, but they, like me, were never accorded the opportunity. (This also applies to average height women, too) And the reality is that the vast majority of tall women will not even consider a shorter man (and Beta males) until it is too late. You would think it would be obvious that if you included shorter males (and Beta males) in your suitor selection, your odds would increase of finding a mate. There are a lot more short and medium height males than there are taller ones. So my advice would be to accept the advances of all men and get to know them. I, who would have relished the opportunity of having curvy broad hips and a tapered waist to hold all night and to make love to into the early hours of the morning, was never, not once, even given a chance to start a relationship. Throw away the yardstick, for you may find someone like me, who would love to share his life and love with a tall girl.
By the way, another tie in with this article and be found at this web site.
http://shortguycentral.com/P-57/beware-of-the-reformed-heightist-woman
This writer tell about his rejections in his 20’s by women only to find that women now chased after him, in spite of his height, now he is in his early 30’s. He warns of the dangers of the “Reformed Heightest Woman” who are desperate after wasting their life chasing the Alfa male and now want a stable Beta with a steady pay-check.
Here is anther on how women who found the Mr. Average (Beta Males) were worth nothing in their 20’s and now that these women are in their 30’s can’t buy a date, even from the Beta Males
Why women lose in the dating game
http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/life/why-women-lose-the-dating-game-20120421-1xdn0.html
During their 20s, women compete for the most highly desirable men, the Mr Bigs. Many will readily share a bed with the sporty, attractive, confident men, while ordinary men miss out. As Whiskey puts it at whiskeysplace.wordpress.com: ”Joe Average Beta Male is about as desirable to women as a cold bowl of oatmeal.”
”I can’t believe how many men my age are only interested in younger women,” wails Gail, a 34-year-old advertising executive as she describes her first search through men’s profiles on the RSVP internet dating site. She is shocked to find many mid-30s men have set up their profiles to refuse mail from women their own age.
Talking to many women like her, it’s intriguing how many look back on past relationships where they let good men get away because they weren’t ready. American journalist Kate Bolick wrote recently in The Atlantic about breaking off her three-year relationship with a man she described as ”intelligent, good-looking, loyal and kind”. She acknowledged ”there was no good reason to end things”, yet, at the time, she was convinced something was missing in the relationship. That was 11 years ago. She’s is now 39 and facing grim choices.
Bloody hell, mate. I’m sorry to hear you’ve had such bad experiences, but the way you talk – about ‘alpha’ and ‘beta’ males, and about women, makes me think you feel like you’re owed something. It also sounds uncomfortably like you think women who didn’t want to date you, no matter what their reasons, are somehow now deserving of hatred. Personally, *I* wouldn’t date you, and it’s got nothing to do with your height or looks, but everything to do with your attitude.
Selected quotes from other sites
Today at a restaurant I overheard a group of women talking about short and tall men. These girls ranged from probably 5’1″ – 5’8″ sitting right next to me and another guy I was having lunch with. They were ranging from 3/10 to 8/10 in the looks department and aged probably between 20-40. One girl of 5’3″ even said that her 6’3″ boyfriend was the “ideal perfect height”. WTF?!? That is a foot taller than her! He has to bend down 12 inches to kiss her! How does that work, surely her ideal would be around 5’7″??? Another girl said that she felt “so protected” when wrapped in the arms of her 6’2″ boyfriend and shorter men couldn’t offer that. Another girl of 5’5″ said she dated a 5’8″ man once and hated it – she said “never again”… which followed with a bout of scornful laughter from the other girls. Another girl of about 5’6” said all men under 6 foot were “pathetic”
I was at a bar last night with some of my friends. A shorter guy hit on my very attractive friend. She politely said she wasn’t interested but after he was gone my group seemed to just rag on this guy about how pathetic it was for a shorter guy to hit on her. I couldn’t believe it. I spoke up about it and even used the analogy to calling a girl fat. Apparently it’s not the same according to them. I just told them they were all being incredibly shallow and they just laughed it off and told me to go make the guy feel better.
I was feeling a little disgusted by them because the guy wasn’t ugly at all and he was incredibly nice and friendly. Do shorter guys get this treatment normally?
Short men will seldom speak openly about how they feel because they are a) men and b) short. As someone who has run an open online forum for body image debate for the past eight years I can say with some authority that men are about 200% less likely to admit to feeling insecure about their bodies than women; for short men to speak up about their body image anxiety is virtually unheard of.
Tall women, conversely, are quite happy to tell you all about how unfeminine they feel, how they can’t find shoes that fit and that even when they do, they lament the “rule” (which they’ve made up) which prohibits them from wearing heels. They’ll speak wistfully about how they just LONG to be flung over someone’s shoulder “as though they weigh nothing”, which they will insist happens to petite women ALL THE TIME. (Those “petite women” tend to hate it, by the way).
They’ll also often bemoan the fact that they “can’t” find a boyfriend, because all the men who are taller than them are already dating other women. These women are often short, which makes them extremely cross.
• For research purposes, I occasionally would glance through my dating service’s “married file,” (a file that obviously contained the profiles of couples who met and married through LunchDates). I noted that many of the women in that file had stated in their interview that they really cared very little how tall their matches were, and that flexibility had translated into a very successful membership.
Then I looked through the file of people who had completed their membership at LunchDates without meeting anyone. Sure enough, it was full of those women who had insisted they would only meet men much taller than themselves
There are quite a few red flags in your comment that make me think you didn’t actually read this blog before you posted – your mention of tall women ‘making up’ the rule about heels, despite the fact that I tackled that in the blog post, as well as references to ‘alpha’ males and stuff. Because of that I’m not going to go through your answer in detail, but I will say that some of what you say I’d tend to agree with, other stuff sounds ridiculous and generalising, and ultimately it sounds like you’ve tried very hard to understand and apportion blame for your own problems, while refusing to have sympathy for anyone else. Which is a shame. I hope things pick up for you.
GOTN
You need to write less and read more. The comments I provided on May 1, 5:13 PM are other people’s quotes that I used to back up my points in my writing that appeared on April 9, 9:15 PM. I never mentioned high heels in my writing. As a matter of fact when my wife does wear heels she is taller than me. Do I care? Not in the least.
I would encourage you to go to these 2 sites and get your input. Also, look and see if you see some of your girlfriends heading down these paths.
http://shortguycentral.com/P-57/beware-of-the-reformed-heightist-woman
http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/life/why-women-lose-the-dating-game-20120421-1xdn0.html
It took me sometime respond to your comments, but here I go.
How many people would obtain 3 degrees only to be told that the said person expected the world to owe him something?
You state that my attitude had something to do with my rejections, but if YOU actually read what I wrote, you will see these words. “ Now, you may say the rejections were because of my looks, that could be true, but as I approached girls closer to my height, my success rate went way up.” I dated one girl for 3 ½ years when I was in college. I also was in a Fraternity and had a social life.
You state,” Personally, *I* wouldn’t date you, and it’s got nothing to do with your height or looks, but everything to do with your attitude.” Well, I guess we would exchange insults all day, but I will counter with this. I have 5 things you most likely never will, a wedding band and 4 children.
Cool story.
GOTN
Believe it or not, we are both on the same side. You, as a tall girl, want your fair share of dating opportunities to help you find a man to share your life with. I as a man, under 6′, am tired of see men, like me, rejected for no logical reason. Height is no indicator that a man will be a more loving husband, better father or better man, yet this height stupidity is never questioned. You need to experience a person and the only way you can do this is by spending time with that person.
This blog made me think of my early 20’s, as I was rejected by the foxes who chased after the Alfa males and showed no more interest in me than glancing at a blade of grass next to the highway traveling at 75 MPH. And this made me think about my own personal experiences with tall women, a slightly different story from this blog, but same result due to being a Beta male.
One 6’ tall girl, in a gym, talked to me with such a look of disinterested she couldn’t have looked or acted more uninterested if she had wanted to. I approached another, who I estimated being 5 foot 9 or 10 inches. She got angry with me for even asking her out and stuck her finger in my face informing me she didn’t date shorter men. On line, I met a girl 5’11”, and we worked out together once in my apartment complex gym, after that she did not return my two phone calls, there could be others, too, I just don’t remember them all. Now, you may say the rejections were because of my looks, that could be true, but as I approached girls closer to my height, my success rate went way up.
This blog also made me think about the rejections by tall girls, and it angered me, but not at the time the rejection. Only years later, when I actually tallied them up, did I get angry. I was rejected not because I was fat, bald, ugly, deformed or had a rotten personality. No. The reason I was rejected by all of these women was my height. Not a one even bothered to put forth the effort to get to know me much less date me.
I did date three women who were significantly taller than me, two at 5’11” and one at 5’10”. (I am 5’8”) And all three happened to be 32 years of age, which is more than a coincidence and a tie in with this blog. No doubt all three wanted a tall Alfa male, and lost, so a safe stable Beta male was the next best thing in their 30’s, for I certainly didn’t grow any taller and I doubt I got better looking. These women were past their prime and worried. I was in my late 30’s, at this time of my life, after being married for 10 years. It was also at this time, I could easily date younger women, and I did. When I was 38, my first girlfriend was 27, the next was 27 and the next was 24 who became my second wife. I never dated with any intent of marrying a woman my age. Younger women had no issue with me dating them, and I certainly had no issue dating them. I remember going to singles events and seeing very pretty women, who were my age, who I know 15 years earlier would not have given me the time of day. And even now, they may have looked better than myself, but now it was me who had no interest in approaching them. I did not want to take time and money away from pursuing younger women. Why go old, when I could go young? I was amazed how the dating game changed in my favor. And I used it to my advantage, just as women had done years earlier.
I am now married and have 4 sons. I have 3 degrees, and I have co-authored 2 US patents. I could have provided a good life to any girl. I wanted a taller girl because of the physical turn on and to for fill one of my desires, yet not one single tall girl (in her 20’s) gave me a chance. I was turned down consistently and without a second thought. (Maybe due to the Alfa male fascination) So, if you find yourself in your late 20’s or early 30’s with no prospect of a husband or children in the immediate future, you have no one to blame but yourself. There were men like me, who wanted a leggy female, but they, like me, were never accorded the opportunity. (This also applies to average height women, too) And the reality is that the vast majority of tall women will not even consider a shorter man (and Beta males) until it is too late. You would think it would be obvious that if you included shorter males (and Beta males) in your suitor selection, your odds would increase of finding a mate. There are a lot more short and medium height males than there are taller ones.
So my advice would be to accept the advances of all men and get to know them. I, who would have relished the opportunity of having curvy broad hips and a tapered waist to hold all night and to make love to into the early hours of the morning, was never, not once, even given a chance to start a relationship. Throw away the yardstick, for you may find someone like me, who would love to share his life and love with a tall girl.
By the way, another tie in with this article and be found at this web site.
http://shortguycentral.com/P-57/beware-of-the-reformed-heightist-woman
This writer tell about his rejections in his 20’s by women only to find that women now chased after him, in spite of his height, now he is in his early 30’s. He warns of the dangers of the “Reformed Heightest Woman” who are desperate after wasting their life chasing the Alfa male and now want a stable Beta with a steady pay-check.
Here is anther on how women who found the Mr. Average (Beta Males) were worth nothing in their 20’s and now that these women are in their 30’s can’t buy a date, even from the Beta Males
Why women lose in the dating game
http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/life/why-women-lose-the-dating-game-20120421-1xdn0.html
During their 20s, women compete for the most highly desirable men, the Mr Bigs. Many will readily share a bed with the sporty, attractive, confident men, while ordinary men miss out. As Whiskey puts it at whiskeysplace.wordpress.com: ”Joe Average Beta Male is about as desirable to women as a cold bowl of oatmeal.”
”I can’t believe how many men my age are only interested in younger women,” wails Gail, a 34-year-old advertising executive as she describes her first search through men’s profiles on the RSVP internet dating site. She is shocked to find many mid-30s men have set up their profiles to refuse mail from women their own age.
Talking to many women like her, it’s intriguing how many look back on past relationships where they let good men get away because they weren’t ready. American journalist Kate Bolick wrote recently in The Atlantic about breaking off her three-year relationship with a man she described as ”intelligent, good-looking, loyal and kind”. She acknowledged ”there was no good reason to end things”, yet, at the time, she was convinced something was missing in the relationship. That was 11 years ago. She’s is now 39 and facing grim choices.
Dear GOTN,
I’m puzzled as to why you espouse the theory in this article.
Edward Longpost (4th Feb) doesn’t in fact miss the point, in that he points out that IF what you describe really is the reasoning of taller women who are rejecting shorter men at the outset, they would be making an obnoxious generalisation. They would be assuming that because some short men have psychological issues about their height, this applies to short men generally and they are therefore undateable. It is, as he says, the equivalent of refusing to date any fat people, because some fat people have issues around eating and exercise.
Given that this would be an obnoxious and illogical view to hold, it seems odd to assume that it is widely held, unless you hear lots of people actually saying it. I note that in response to Edward Longpost you back away from any suggestion that you hold this view yourself (although the last line of your piece might lead a reader to infer otherwise).
Certainly, as a 5ft 7 man, I don’t come across many women holding this view:
(a) What I hear and see is a lot of women saying what some of your commenters above have said, that they only find it “sexy” if a man is “physically dominant” or “can look after them” – which is then arbitrarily reduced to a question of feet and inches. Often they simply say “In heels would be taller than you” as though this were an answer it itself. That is not a response based on psychoanalysis of the shorter male.
(b) I’ve asked a good number of women on dating sites why they specify this, and the answer has only once been that they had a bad experience with a small man who was “chippy”. On all the other occasions it has been a “physical preference”-type answer.
(c) I have also experienced the kind of sneering that commenter above described (being mocked as a “meerkat”, simply stared at as though it were wholly audacious to approach a taller woman, etc). If the women doing that sneering were really just avoiding dating me because they thought I was insecure about my height, that would be a peculiar and even nastier way of behaving.
To me, this all has the air of the right-wing racist politician, trying to defend his own prejudice by (i) projecting it onto someone else and (ii) inventing spurious explanations for why those people might appear to hold their prejudiced view.
So the racist politician says “I don’t hate brown people. But I can see why some voters are uneasy about immigrants. Some immigrants have trouble integrating and may commit crimes”. Truth is – he and his voters are just racists using an excuse.
You say “My readers don’t hate short men. But I can see why some are uneasy about dating shorter men. Some shorter men have issues with their height and may be chippy”. Truth is – you and your readers are just heightists using an excuse.
Why are you defending the indefensible?
You either didn’t read what I actually wrote, or didn’t understand it, then you compared me to a racist politician. I’m not sure what you want me to say in response, but as I reckon the same thing will happen, I’m not that keen to do it.
I did read it – more than once – but I’m afraid I don’t understand. If taken at face value you seem to be saying:
(1) “I won’t date short men because they are likely to be insecure about their height” is not a view you yourself take
(2) Nor do you think it is a fair or reasonable view for other women to take
(3) Nor do you think that, statistically, this is actually the main reason why tall women reject shorter men
In which case I don’t get why you are making the point at all. Except out of annoyance at a handful of short guys who are too hung up to date taller women. I agree they are fools, and slightly annoying. But I think it’s unrealistic (and slightly offensive) to say to most short guys out there that this is the reason they are being rejected.
I’m quite sure I speak for the vast majority of short men in saying that I would be completely happy to date taller women, actively want to do so and would have absolutely no hang-ups or awkwardness of the kind you describe. But the reality is that I (along with that vast majority of other short men) are very frequently denied that chance by the application of an arbitrary height threshold.
In those circumstances I think it is a bit hurtful to those men to float a theory that really short men might be (at least collective) the authors of their own misfortune. Even more so if you don’t think this is actually the case!
It’s not for me to tell you how to respond, but I’d really like to understand WHY you are saying what you’re saying.
No. This is what I’m saying:
1. I think it’s shitty to reject someone purely on the basis of their height. A dude (in the article linked to and quoted from) said that had happened to him a lot.
2. He then went on to list some times when he felt he had been rejected because of his height. In fact, he hadn’t been rejected because of his height: he had rejected others because *he felt insecure about his height*.
3. This is a shit thing, and it happens quite frequently.
4. It is a shit thing when it happens, and people on the receiving end may well be wary of it.
“it is a bit hurtful to those men to float a theory that really short men might be (at least collective) the authors of their own misfortune.”
The guy in the article – based on the evidence he stated – literally *is the author of his own misfortune.* And the misfortune of women he has dated.
You’ve taken what I’ve written and twisted it to make it sound like I’m saying ‘oh short men are dicks.’ Which I haven’t said – and wouldn’t say.
“I’m quite sure I speak for the vast majority of short men in saying that I would be completely happy to date taller women, actively want to do so and would have absolutely no hang-ups or awkwardness of the kind you describe.”
Good for you. Why so defensive here then?
So it really isn’t a general point at all – it is just a point about that handful of men who are too insecure to date a tall woman, and then try to blame the woman for it?
If that’s all you’re saying then we’re in violent agreement. They are stupid and self-destructive (though it is very possible their insecurities stem from nasty treatment in the past).
But I don’t think the general tone of the article conveys that – look at your last line “Maybe we are sick of this bullshit”. Your use of the plural and “sick of”, and the suggestion that it is a real alternative to the conventional shitty reasons for rejecting people on the basis of height, all seem to imply that this is more than a complaint about a tiny handful of guys, and something potentially of more general application.
Re having no hang-ups, you say “good for me”. In the narrowest sense I suppose it is. But there is little value in having no hang-ups when you are faced with the classic “Guys under 5ft11, please swipe left”.
“I don’t lack sympathy for shorter guys who feel insecure, or indeed for tall girls like me who’ve occasionally worn flats or cricked their necks or leant on a convenient bench to try and appear smaller. I understand that this shit is hard. But if I can understand that this shit is hard, then surely short blokes can too. And so can the hordes of angry Guardian commenters who are using ‘shallowness’ as an explanation when there’s far more to it than that.”
I don’t get what it is you don’t understand.
I don’t understand why you think “there is far more to it than [shallowness]” for the “hordes” of people who experience it.
Your example of being (rightly) annoyed by one daft bloke who is too insecure to date tall women doesn’t seem to me to explain the very large number of women who refuse to date shorter men.
I would suggest that in the large majority of cases that is for physical reasons, and not because they anticipate that all short guys are likely to be immature weirdos.
In other words, your gripe against that guy is justified, but suggesting it is a general cause of tall women’s antipathy to short guys is not.
As with most things in life, the simplest explanation (heightism) is probably the best.
“one daft bloke”
“When I tweeted about this yesterday, I got a variety of responses from taller women:
One whose date asked her to ‘wear lower shoes’, even though she was already in ballet flats
One whose dad reacted with disgust when she reached teenage years and became taller than him
One who got a serious back problem from stooping all the time
One whose lover said it was impossible to *really* fall for her because of her height”
Also, while we’re on the subject of generalisations, in your comments you’ve repeatedly made reference to ‘most’ women or ‘most’ short dudes. You’ve also used a weird variation on Occams razor to try and imply that it’s ‘simplest’ to assume that all tall women have a universal identical reason to do a thing. Not really the ‘simplest’ option, given that it goes against almost everything we know about humanity. What’s more, it requires you to ignore or downplay the other people I’ve cited here.
To put it really really simply, what I’m saying is: there are some things people do which are quite shit, as evidenced by this guy’s article and the experiences of other people, and that it’s not unreasonable to think this is a contributing factor in some other people’s wariness about dating them. You, on the other hand, seem to be arguing that all tall women (or in fact just women in general) dislike short guys. Please stop this now. I don’t see how we’re going to agree when you seem intent on simplifying human nature so radically that you end up with a conclusion that all women are heightist. What’s more, I think you do a discredit to the people (both short men, and tall women, and vice versa) who are genuinely frustrated by these myths, and the way in which they are reinforced.
I plead guilty to generalisation! But that is the whole premise of your post, entitled “Why won’t tall women date short men?” – we all know that while individual tastes may vary (hi, Jerry Hall!) there are certain generally true propositions, one of which is that short men are generally regarded as less attractive, especially by tall women.
I wouldn’t dispute that for a woman who has experienced the kind of attitude you cite, it might be offputting.
I think what we disagree about is the relative frequency of that phenomenon as a cause of many tall (and not tall) women refusing to date short men. Based on my experience and that of others I know I think is is extremely rare. The reasons given are nearly always more directly physical.
That is also aupported by the number of shorter women who also insist on tall men. The 5’4″ girls on Match.com who insist on six-footers clearly don’t suffer the phenomenon you describe. They aren’t worried about a 5’9″ guy wanting them to wear flats.
We may also disagree on the morality of this. Your indignation in this piece implies that the fuckwittery of Guardian dude somehow reclaims the moral high ground for tall women who arbitrarily reject short men. I dispute that for 2 reasons:
1. I think that it is rarely the real reason (or even the reason given at all)
2. It relies on tarring all short men with the same brush as your Guardian-commenting fuckwit, which is extremely unfair as previous commenters observed. It is also implausible, given that we are ex hypothesi talking here about short men who would be keen to date taller women.
This blog made me think of my early 20’s, as I was rejected by the foxes who chased after the Alfa males and showed no more interest in me than glancing at a blade of grass next to the highway traveling at 75 MPH. And this made me think about my own personal experiences with tall women, a slightly different story from this blog, but same result due to being a Beta male. One 6’ tall girl, in a gym, talked to me with such a look of disinterested she couldn’t have looked or acted more uninterested if she had wanted to. I approached another, who I estimated being 5 foot 9 or 10 inches. She got angry with me for even asking her out and stuck her finger in my face informing me she didn’t date shorter men. On line, I met a girl 5’11”, and we worked out together once in my apartment complex gym, after that she did not return my two phone calls, there could be others, too, I just don’t remember them all. Now, you may say the rejections were because of my looks, that could be true, but as I approached girls closer to my height, my success rate went way up.
This blog also made me think about the rejections by tall girls, and it angered me, but not at the time the rejection. Only years later, when I actually tallied them up, did I get angry. I was rejected not because I was fat, bald, ugly, deformed or had a rotten personality. No. The reason I was rejected by all of these women was my height. Not a one even bothered to put forth the effort to get to know me much less date me.
I did date three women who were significantly taller than me, two at 5’11” and one at 5’10”. (I am 5’8”) And all three happened to be 32 years of age, which is more than a coincidence and a tie in with this blog. No doubt all three wanted a tall Alfa male, and lost, so a safe stable Beta male was the next best thing in their 30’s, for I certainly didn’t grow any taller and I doubt I got better looking. These women were past their prime and worried. I was in my late 30’s, at this time of my life, after being married for 10 years. It was also at this time, I could easily date younger women, and I did. When I was 38, my first girlfriend was 27, the next was 27 and the next was 24 who became my second wife. I never dated with any intent of marrying a woman my age. Younger women had no issue with me dating them, and I certainly had no issue dating them. I remember going to singles events and seeing very pretty women, who were my age, who I know 15 years earlier would not have given me the time of day. And even now, they may have looked better than myself, but now it was me who had no interest in approaching them. I did not want to take time and money away from pursuing younger women. Why go old, when I could go young? I was amazed how the dating game changed in my favor. And I used it to my advantage, just as women had done years earlier.
I am now married and have 4 sons. I have 3 degrees, and I have co-authored 2 US patents. I could have provided a good life to any girl. I wanted a taller girl because of the physical turn on and to for fill one of my desires, yet not one single tall girl (in her 20’s) gave me a chance. I was turned down consistently and without a second thought. (Maybe due to the Alfa male fascination) So, if you find yourself in your late 20’s or early 30’s with no prospect of a husband or children in the immediate future, you have no one to blame but yourself. There were men like me, who wanted a leggy female, but they, like me, were never accorded the opportunity. (This also applies to average height women, too) And the reality is that the vast majority of tall women will not even consider a shorter man (and Beta males) until it is too late. You would think it would be obvious that if you included shorter males (and Beta males) in your suitor selection, your odds would increase of finding a mate. There are a lot more short and medium height males than there are taller ones. So my advice would be to accept the advances of all men and get to know them. I, who would have relished the opportunity of having curvy broad hips and a tapered waist to hold all night and to make love to into the early hours of the morning, was never, not once, even given a chance to start a relationship. Throw away the yardstick, for you may find someone like me, who would love to share his life and love with a tall girl.
By the way, another tie in with this article and be found at this web site.
http://shortguycentral.com/P-57/beware-of-the-reformed-heightist-woman
This writer tell about his rejections in his 20’s by women only to find that women now chased after him, in spite of his height, now he is in his early 30’s. He warns of the dangers of the “Reformed Heightest Woman” who are desperate after wasting their life chasing the Alfa male and now want a stable Beta with a steady pay-check.
Here is anther on how women who found the Mr. Average (Beta Males) were worth nothing in their 20’s and now that these women are in their 30’s can’t buy a date, even from the Beta Males
Why women lose in the dating game
http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/life/why-women-lose-the-dating-game-20120421-1xdn0.html
During their 20s, women compete for the most highly desirable men, the Mr Bigs. Many will readily share a bed with the sporty, attractive, confident men, while ordinary men miss out. As Whiskey puts it at whiskeysplace.wordpress.com: ”Joe Average Beta Male is about as desirable to women as a cold bowl of oatmeal.”
”I can’t believe how many men my age are only interested in younger women,” wails Gail, a 34-year-old advertising executive as she describes her first search through men’s profiles on the RSVP internet dating site. She is shocked to find many mid-30s men have set up their profiles to refuse mail from women their own age.
Talking to many women like her, it’s intriguing how many look back on past relationships where they let good men get away because they weren’t ready. American journalist Kate Bolick wrote recently in The Atlantic about breaking off her three-year relationship with a man she described as ”intelligent, good-looking, loyal and kind”. She acknowledged ”there was no good reason to end things”, yet, at the time, she was convinced something was missing in the relationship. That was 11 years ago. She’s is now 39 and facing grim choices.
This is the third time you’ve posted this bullshit comment. Are you going for quantity in lieu of quality?
I like very tall woman im 5’3 where is the problem
Wow!
5-11 here(on a good day), nothing special about me, over 50 and widowed. In the last few years I have dated women from 4-10 to well over 6 feet…6-5? I would guess but never asked. 35 to 55 y.o. Skinny to big and curvy rocks my world.
Back in the day, prewife, I dated women from 4-11 to 6-4. At least to me, then and of late, height never really factored into anything. We liked each other and wanted to find out more. Heels on a 6-5 women are as exciting and sexy as on a 4-10 women. Big or tiny boobs, huge hips to no hips. Eye color, hair color, whatever.
Its women that drive me crazy.
When you are young biology, as in good breeding material makes your heart pound, but in later years you just want a great companion who shares interests with you, loves you, turns you on as you do them, and stands behind you as you do them. Height matters not as you get older. I guarantee that.
I always assumed it was because they thought that a shorter guy might not be able to dominate them in bed, if they wished, or that they wouldn’t FEEL dominated. Either that, or they were worried about the whole large vagina/small penis thing.
It’s an old post, but I’d like to comment on it nevertheless, because I had
quite different experience. It might be due to different country, different
people, different unit of measurements, I don’t know, but here’s my theory:
Back in the day when I used to date online, I noticed that women (between
20-35 years old, that was my age group back then) went for tall guys. Not
taller than them, simply tall. If they stated their preference, it was at
least 175 cm (which is the average male height around here), but usually it
was 180 cm (so they all wanted above average guys). They had this preference
regardless their own height, i.e. 150 cm tall or 170 cm tall girls all had
this “only above 180 cm” policy. As I’m not that tall, I never even tried to
communicate with these women, because they clearly didn’t want me, so I don’t
know why they wanted tall men. However, some women were not this explicit in
their preferences. I had a chat with a woman like this. She had enough of guys
not turning up on dates, so I even have to call her during the chat to assure
her that I’m a real person and willing to meet (and then fuck) her. Indeed, we
met the next day and it was the shortest date of my life: she said “I thought
you were taller” and left me. She was about 10 cm smaller than me. Again, she
didn’t went for taller guys, she wanted tall a guy. At that time I still
didn’t understand why.
Then I met my (at that time future) wife and after about 5 months of dating
she casually mentioned that she needs to pack away her high heels, because she
just cannot wear those with me. She’s a couple of cm shorter than me, so on
high heels she’s the taller. And that’s when I realized that men can be
considered “fashion accessories” (amongst their numerous other functions). As
the colour of the shoe has to match the colour of the scarf (or whatnot – I’m
bad at fashion), the heights of the couple also have to match if they are
going out. And indeed, the only time she wore those high heels was on her hen
party when I was not around (obviously). My theory is that women (especially
in the 20-35 age group) want tall men, because they look good next to them. It
doesn’t have anything to do with perceived self esteem.
To further my point, I did date a taller woman once for about a year (before I
met my wife, of course). She was not only taller, but 18 (yes, eighteen) years
older than me. In her age group there weren’t that many guys who were still
alive and had a useable cock, so she had to look around in the age group of
her kids, and that’s why she contacted me first (one of the two times in my
entire life). She couldn’t be picky about height – so she was satisfied with
mine. This relationship was not about going out in front of other people, it was
about fucking, and there the height doesn’t matter.
I also find it strange that guys comment negatively about their date’s or
girlfriend’s height. I do think if I had ever tried to do something like
this, I’d had been kicked to the curb before I got the chance to finish the
insult. Are we sure that the self-esteem of men is the problem?
First let me indicate being a guy considered good looking however i’m 5’6” and honestly the majority of
women either biologically or wearing hi heels are taller and in the majority of situations tower over me and nothing to let me know how short or your so tiny and I
have finally accepted when i’m hugging and kissing women while standing they will have to accommodate my shortness by bending over down and with my present significant other she’s 5’11” wears heels and
makes or relationship with the height difference not awkward at all, maybe for observers and others.
I have never understood my height or lack of height situation as a male 5’6” my mother was 5’9” my younger sister is 6’1” and I use to hate going out with them to dinner or lunch not because I didn’t love them
humiliation being towered over by your mother and younger sister and now every woman I manage to be with towers over me. I am presently with a woman who is 5’11” and if I just mention why she’s wearing heels her response references she’s no taller than my mother or sister so what’s the issue. Feeling humiliation and being emasculated for starters.
Is she emasculating you? Because it sounds to me like she is just living her life as a 5’11” woman, and I’m afraid no matter what hangups society has foisted on you, you don’t get to dictate what she should wear. It’s shit that society has made you feel this way, but please don’t take your humiliation out on the women you love.
As a short (and heavily balding) man, I accept that most women don’t want to date short men, but I think many short men also make their situation out to be much worse than it actually is. ‘We can get “fatties”, mediocre looking women etc’. That is complete rubbish. I have dated some overweight women, but that is because I was actually attracted to them, not because they were my only choice. One of them was approached to be a plus size model when she was 18, so she was far from ugly.
I also have no problem believing that taller women have had some bad experiences dating shorter men, but swearing off short men as a result of that suggests that they are leaning into their own prejudices, which are socially conditioned to a large degree.
My problem is that I generally don’t think they are attracted to me, so I just ignore them and effectively gaslight myself, with the exception of the overweight woman mentioned above, who was also taller than me. Quite noticeably taller too, especially when wearing heels. To others we looked like an odd couple, but observant people could see the obvious chemistry, and I didn’t care at all.